One other thoought.
I had a older Bonanza that you could switch from left- right -both- off.
Have you ever had one of those valves get kind of sticky and want to catch and not turn any more??
One quick way to learn to turn it thru both instead of thru off!
I know because it is real hard to get both hands on the damn valve and use all you have to turn it past off and keep the airplane in the air with any semblance of coordinated flight!! Especially when it's quite!
GT

I have run out of gas 3 times in the last 30 years in all of my gas vehicles. Not the M7. My SOP is at 1/4 tank add more. Every time I ran out the gauge said I still had fuel in the tank.
1. Sending unit stuck
2. Trip computer said 20 miles to empty. Filling station 10 miles, no problem.
3. New to me car. When gauge says 1/16 it is empty. 1/4 mile to the filling station.

Now, I don't believe guages. I am a gas chicken in the plane. Usually land with 16-20 gallons.

When I transfer it, I get the last little bit out by flying nose high/wing low, its all usable, but you still have fumes so what the hey. And the wing tanks are, well, right there in the wing roots, I think I have a much better chance of ripping a wing off then crumpling the fuselage to the extent the tank would rupture. I did make a point of not having any electrical up in the wing roots, unlike some designs.
Then there's belly tanks, while they seem to be fairly common for the Super Cub pilot with all the bells and whistles, they've always spooked me, (but I still want one) I've never ripped a wing off or crumpled a fuselage (well just a little) but I have had trauma to the belly area. An interesting place to put your fuel when going into bush areas with maybe unknown clearance problems /rock etc. To be realistic it's all bad, too bad we need to carry it at all!

Bonanza Man wrote:

courierguy wrote:I've often pondered whether my 12 gallon aux tank, carried strapped down on my forward cargo deck (replaces the pass. seat, welded aluminum, vented outside, quick and easy removal) in my S-7S, is more potentially dangerous then running out of gas and/or stopping a lot more. I notice once the wing tanks lower enough I pump the 12 g. up into them ASAP, on the theory that it be "safer" in a crash...its hard to give up another 3+hrs duration at cruise speeds so thats why I do it solo, this article makes me feel better! kidding....

You'll never get all the gas out of there in flight, right? At least a little left over. So you crash and that tank ruptures and there's a spark. That would be a hell of a fireball. Maybe not enough to kill you but you'll get more than a tan.

RobBurson wrote:I have run out of gas 3 times in the last 30 years in all of my gas vehicles. Not the M7. My SOP is at 1/4 tank add more. Every time I ran out the gauge said I still had fuel in the tank.
1. Sending unit stuck
2. Trip computer said 20 miles to empty. Filling station 10 miles, no problem.
3. New to me car. When gauge says 1/16 it is empty. 1/4 mile to the filling station.

Now, I don't believe guages. I am a gas chicken in the plane. Usually land with 16-20 gallons.

When I'm running the rig cross country, I'm usaully looking for fuel around the 1/2 way mark. Never know if your going to need to do a long detour and that's about the time for a pit stop anyway.

if i may add to the discussion - how many of you Beaver pilots out there have NOT blown a tank accidentally? Pop one on t/o with a full load and you're a dead man............ pre-takeoff checks are not just for rookies - esp. if you're doing 16 hr days in the bush.........

Well we just had a Beech Debonair crash on Wednesday. Another pilot in the area heard him tell approach that he was having "fuel problems".

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8989553 click on the video. The statistics they cite seem very low for fuel exhaustion accidents.

SixTwoLeemer wrote:Well we just had a Beech Debonair crash on Wednesday. Another pilot in the area heard him tell approach that he was having "fuel problems".

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8989553 click on the video. The statistics they cite seem very low for fuel exhaustion accidents.

Wow!! I'm not sure the facts yet, but looked like a highway to the left of where he stopped. Any idea if he landed on the highway first, then swerved off into the shoulder? Or did the pilot decide to ditch it into the shoulder from the get go? Unless there ended up being too many hazards, landing on the highway seems like it would have been the logical choice? Would be interesting to hear the pilots perspective on his outcome of this incident and how he ended up on the shoulder with a totalled airplane.

The highway is a great place to let down But screw the wind, land with the flow of trafic. Just as you almost get stopped, then pull off onto the shoulder. Real handy if you have cones and road flairs.

The Nevada Troopers are very helpfull, but very sarcastic. One even said they could give me an overwidth ticket. 102" is maximum without signage. One asked where my pilot car was.

Tim

d

They are also generous, (these may have been local cops) I got a couple gallons of fuel from one, when I landed a Kitfox a few miles short of Henderson. The landing site was where that big rocket fuel plant explosion about 20 years ago occurred. All I knew was it was a big empty space, I was minutes away from being out of fuel, and other then the power lines all around wide open. I got out right before the TV stations showed up, all they got was footage of the takeoff, NOT my name etc.


The Nevada Troopers are very helpfull, but very sarcastic. One even said they could give me an overwidth ticket. 102" is maximum without signage. One asked where my pilot car was.

Tim[/quote]

luke wrote:if i may add to the discussion - how many of you Beaver pilots out there have NOT blown a tank accidentally? Pop one on t/o with a full load and you're a dead man............ pre-takeoff checks are not just for rookies - esp. if you're doing 16 hr days in the bush.........

Luke u got that right....once while taxiing for warmup had a little fuel in rear tank decided to use it for warm up. Forgot to switch to full tank. Engine quit while coming up on the step. 30 seconds later would not have been pretty. Lesson learned

One of my favorite instruments is the Electronics International FP-5L. With 36 gallons I found it was accurate to .1 gallon on a cross country and during local flying (multiple fuel samples and touch-and-gos) it was good for .8 gallon.

I also keep a small note pad to keep track of fuel in the tanks. It's a good cross check for the FP-5L and can help avoid mistakes such as topping off on an incline or the potential fuel thieves.

I guess the main idea here is fuel management. We get into the lull of passive fuel management when driving a car...fill her up and refill when the needle goes to E and the cherry light comes on. Not so easy with a plane and we need to do some active fuel management.

Article from this month's AOPA Pilot:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2010/march/technique.html

Just churning up the bottom a little today...

Some of the best advice I ever got regarding flying came from Bill Reid. Bill told me to make my own dipstick and then document how much fuel I use. When you know exactly how much fuel your plane burns an hour, go to Walmart and buy a cooking timer. Set the time on the timer according to how much fuel you have onboard. A quick check of the timer tells you how long you have till the engine quits. Great advice and I won't forget it.

Two bits of opposing wisdom I learned as a kid growing up on the farm. The third I learned on this site. (Zane, I couldn't resist)

1. Don't worry, the mean dog can't chase ya if ya don't run.
2. There is no possible way this tractor can git stuck if ya don't spin the wheels.
3. Ya can't run otta gas if ya keep the tank full.

They kinda belong on this list.

Military Intelligence Oxymorons

assistant supervisor
new tradition
original copy
plastic glass
uninvited guest
highly depressed
live recording
authentic reproduction
partial cease-fire
limited lifetime guarantee
elevated subway
dry lake
true replica
forward lateral
standard options
mandatory volunteer
mutual differences
nondairy creamer
open secret
resident alien
silent alarm
sports sedan
wireless cable
mercy killing
lethal assistance
business ethics
friendly fire
genuine veneer
full-time day care
death benefits
holy war

Seriously, fuel management is.
On my experimental I have sight tubes on each wing tank that extend into the cabin. Low tech, but as accurate as the guy that marked them. I jacked up the tail so the plane was level as in flight. I drained out all usable fuel. Then put in 5 gallons at a time with a marked can and I marked the tube at 5 gallon increments as I refilled them. It is very accurate since the Tundra has two fuel supply lines on each inboard end of its tanks, one located at the front inboard corner and one at the rear inboard corner of each tank. The dihedral of the wing in level flight brings fuel to the inboard end and the g force of the turns help but a long shallow left turn or left wing low cross controlled approach with a low fuel level in the left tank and the selector set to the left tank or possibly just a standard left turn approach pattern could force that fuel away from the inlet end of the left tank causing air to enter the left line. I have no "both" position on the lever, it is either left or right. In low fuel situations I would then rather have more fuel in the right tank to provide for standard pattern turns on final. I always thought it would be quite embarrassing to run out of fuel on turn to final and still have fuel in the tank. I think its possible. I wonder if a "both" position on the fuel selector would allow the fuel from the fuller tank to keep the line full till landing. The step dad's cub has a rear header tank on the deck behind the rear seat and all wing tank fuel is routed through it. It holds the last gallon of usable from the wing tanks and that supply keeps the line from there to the engine from getting air in when the tank or lines above it runs dry and provides a steady supply for nose low descent and turns to right or left and gives you a chance at the last drop to make it over the fence. Wonder why they quit that?

My fuel management system is to dip the tanks with my calibrated stick after fueling, and to write the fuel quantity & the tach time on a piece of masking tape & stick it to the panel. I burn about 8.5 per tach hour but plan for 9. As long as I don't spring a leak or otherwise lose fuel it works great. I like this stick and tape routine better than the FP5 fuel flow gizmo I used to have.
I don't trust gauges, either mechanical or electric. Sight tubes are a lot more trustworthy IMHO. They seem foolproof but I realize there is no such thing if the fool is sufficiently determined.

Eric

Jaerl wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got regarding flying came from Bill Reid. Bill told me to make my own dipstick and then document how much fuel I use. When you know exactly how much fuel your plane burns an hour, go to Walmart and buy a cooking timer. Set the time on the timer according to how much fuel you have onboard. A quick check of the timer tells you how long you have till the engine quits. Great advice and I won't forget it.

Anytime -your welcome. Seems with ever increasing cost of fuel($4.58 gallon 100LL here at BVU) I'm pressed into tight corner to what can I afford . My old 182 burns roughly 11 gallons a hour and my capacity is 60 gallons so I'm roughly 5 hours until walk. I try and plan for trip out and back + 1 hour. Lets just say Grand Canyon National roughly hour away from BVU so hour out plus hour back + my insurance hour >I need 30-35 gallons for trip to go on safe side. Roughly 1/2 tanks both sides with my kitchen timer . I usually carry a little extra say 5 gallons just in case, 40 gallons should do just fine -or 240 lbs of fuel. having less fuel on board also improves takeoff and climb performance on high density altitude days. Density altitude is what the airplane preforms at .Timer is 15 buck plastic battery powered version-get them at Wal-mart or cheapo places -I have 2 (actually 3 ) going every time I crank up. Stick for measuring fuel can be wooden ruler from kids school section or cut off yardstick. Dip your tanks NEVER rely on the fuel gauges to tell you anything. Check and verify with your own eyes. IF you need a ladder or stool so bee it. I use a "apple Box "available on internet . Apple box makes a decent camp chair with a soft pad to pad your bottom. When I'm filling up and going long cross country I use 30-50 % or more mogas and climb shallow keeping eye on favorable winds with my gps. If I encounter high headwinds at say 8500 I'll come down to 6500 (if possible) and continue. Usually the higher you go in the desert southwest the higher the winds aloft speed. When at your cruise altitude use low % of power to extended range -and lean for best preformance . I've got a Electronics International digital Manifold pressure gauge and I lean to see a very slight increase in MP -then back off.
Most IMPORTANT CHECK FUEL and Time what you've used.

1SeventyZ wrote:Article from this month's AOPA Pilot:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2010/march/technique.html

Just churning up the bottom a little today...

Think about it this way: If you’re on approach in an airplane with two fuel tanks and 10 gallons remaining, would you rather have five gallons in each tank, or all of it in one? Having all of it in one tank, and the fuel selector on that tank, is the better option because it avoids the need to change fuel tanks during a high-workload phase of flight at low altitude. Ideally, pilots should keep a sufficient quantity of fuel stashed away in one tank to fly the entire approach and landing on that tank without a last-minute, low-altitude change.

I don't agree with this part of the article. Hmmm I've got 10 gallons in the right tank don't make turns to right or left? I'd rather have 5 in each.

Jaerl wrote: I am not suggesting anyone fly over gross but I don't go anywhere without having way too much fuel and sometimes that is hard to do in a 150.

I heard once...
There was a Gulpstream sitting in Japan fueling for a flight to Hawaii. A max range flight for this model.
The FO commented to the Almighty that they were over gross due to fuel.
The Almighty ask the FO if he wanted to worry about fuel for the first twenty minutes or the last seven hours.

Like I said... I heard this once.