Hey folks, I'm 16 years into a career as a Navy enlisted man. I intend to fly for a living after retiring in 4 years 2 months 5 days and 21 hours (but who's counting)

I went out of pocket for my PPL and TW endorsement as it is my understanding that the G.I. bill wont touch flight instruction until after PPL. I have been through several talks from my command's career canceler as well as a gentleman from the VA and it's still a bit murky. I am looking for any recent (last 5 years) first hand experience using either Montgomery GI Bill or Post 9/11 GI bill since I haven't made the switch and have both options. I would like to ultimately have as much as I can get in the ratings/license dept. IFR CPL MEL SES etc.

Any input is greatly appreciated.
SD

Flight Training
Flight training is available for such programs as:

Rotary wing qualification
B747-400 Qualification
Dual engine Qualification
Flight engineer
Qualification Requirements

In order to qualify, you must have a private pilot's license and valid medical certification before beginning training. Payments are issued after the training is completed and the school submits your enrollment information to us.

Not available under the Dependents' Educational Assistance program (Chapter 35).

Payment Amounts

While the participation requirements are the same for all GI Bill programs, the payment amount varies depending on the GI Bill program you are utilizing, and the type of Flight School you are attending. (Payments are issued after the training is completed and the school submits the information to the VA.)

Flight Training Under Montgomery GI Bill Or The Reserve Educational Assistance Program (REAP)

If you are training under the Montgomery GI Bill or REAP we will reimburse you for 60% of the approved charges.

Click here for payment information by benefit program.

Under The Post-9/11 GI Bill

Payments for flight training vary based on which type of flight training course and what kind of school you are enrolled in:

If you are enrolled in a degree program that consists of flight training at a public Institution of Higher Learning you can be reimbursed up to the public school in-state cost of the training, and receive a monthly housing allowance and the books and supplies stipend.
If you are enrolled in a degree program that consists of flight training at a private Institution of Higher Learning you can be reimbursed up to the full cost of the training or the national maximum (currently $18,077.50) per academic year, whichever is less. You may also receive a monthly housing allowance and the books and supplies stipend. The Yellow Ribbon Program may apply for those enrolled in degree programs. Click here to learn more and see if your school participates.
If you are enrolled in a vocational flight training program you can be reimbursed the lesser of (1) the full cost of training or (2) the annual maximum amount (click here to see the annual maximum amount) in effect the day you began training in your flight course. You will not receive a housing allowance or the books and supplies stipend. The maximum amount available for reimbursement depends on the academic year you begin training.
For example, if you enroll in a dual-engine certification course that costs $15,000 on November 1, 2012. You can receive a maximum of $10,330 for that course and any other flight training (programs leading to your dual-engine certification, or other certification) that begin before August 1, 2013. Additional flight training courses that begin on or after August 1, 2013 will be subject to a new annual limit. Remember, these amounts could be further limited by your eligibility percentage
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I just started looking into this my self. I'm active duty Air Force with 9 years in and would also like to possibly get a flying job in another 11 years when I retire. The first thing you need to do is go to the VA website and apply for educational benifits and they will send you a letter of eligibility. You need to take this letter to the flight shool where you intend to fly. You can't just go to any flight school, the flight school must be part 141 and it must be VA approved. Once they have your eligibilitey letter you will have to fill out some more paper work there that enrolls you into the instrument and commercial course. You must enroll in both courses at the same time. You also need to get your class II medical before you enroll if you don't already have it. Once you have done those things you can start flying. With the Post 911 G.I. Bill, the VA will pay upto (approx)$10,970 a year starting August 1st, for flight training. Or upto the minimum amout of hours for the rating you are training for (example, 35hrs for instrument). If you enroll in a degree program you get more money for flight training. As far as I know the Montgomery G.I. Bill will only pay for 60% of your flight training costs. You have to pay for your training out of pocket, once a month the flight school will send a document to the VA that lists all your charges. Then the VA will send you a check for reimbursment or you can have it direct deposited into your checking account. This is all information I got from Wings Flight School in Vacaville, Ca last week. I plan on starting my instrument and commercial there next month as long as the VA sends my eligibility letter on time.

I recently retired from a University based Part 141 flight training program. We dealt with the GI Bill regularly. The Post 9/11 GI Bill is SUPER, folks. It will pay for tuition and housing, books, as well as a very generous allowance for flight training.

Things to consider:

1) There are a lot of folks out there with pilot certificates, looking for that step up. You need to be competitive to compete. To be competitive in any field that pays well, you're probably going to need a college degree. Most major airlines require a BS as well as pilot credentials. As do many other fields, though there are those that don't. The other day I chatted with an ag pilot....and asked him that quesiton.....his response: even ag pilots will do better with a college degree and focus in agronomy or crop science.

2) Under Post 9/11, you can complete a four year academic degree program AND complete private (yes, they'll pay for the pvt cert) through CFII and more. The flight training benefits are awesome, though they vary some depending on the state you're training in. You can easily complete ALL flight training up to and through Comm, CFII, and turbine transition. If the school offers rotary wing training, you can do that as well, covered under Post 9/11.

3) Again, before you start using up your GI Bill benefit, consider what a four year degree AND those pilot credentials will do for you in a competitive job market. Use the benefit up on JUST flight training, and you'll miss out on the opportunity to get a College degree as well.

MTV

Use it while you can fellas, and thanks for your service.

Thanks a bunch for the feedback guys. I've been quite surprised with how little clear information there is on line on this subject. I talked to my flight school yesterday who's the only 141 school in the area and was told by the flight school manager that she couldn't remember the last GI bill case she had. More signs of the decline in GA?

Rob- I just may call your flight school to ask them a few questions since it seems like they have some actual GI bill experience. Congrats on the upcoming baby and re-birth of the 170 back into the family (sort of)

MTV- I'm glad to get your perspective and at the same time it makes me feel like i'm wasting a lot of my benefit by using it while on active duty i.e.not able to go through a 4 year school and won't receive the housing allowance. Hopefully i can knock out my instrument and commercial within two years and save that third year to use after retirement.

Gbflyer- Thanks for the thanks. Dysfunctional though she may be, it's still a pleasure to serve our country and help protect what freedom we do still have.

SD

I will throw in my 2 cents.

Do not get a four year degree in Aviation, get a degree in something that will pay you well (and that you enjoy) should you decide not to (or God forbid you can not) follow through with aviation. A lot of folks start out wanting to be pilots, spend the money to get the licenses and get disillusioned with the salaries, working conditions, etc, and find they have spent a lot of their money (yes the GI BIll is your money) on something that has not returned the investment. I know that if I couldn't fly, I wouldn't want to be in the industry, and an aviation sciences degree would not transfer easily to another industry like a business degree would.

I will, respectfully, disagree with MTV, the 141 industry is ridiculously overpriced as a rule (they live off the student loan industry and GI Bill so the student doesn't realized the cost until years later). Just look at the price for a multi-engine cert versus a local flight school, and the result is the same cert but the 141 will be much more expensive. Also, look at the average hours really flown by students to get their certs and you will see that although 141s can legally get you through in less hours, they do not. Once you are a working pilot you will see that nobody cares if you went 141 or 61. The money you save can be uses to build hours, which is really what counts.

MTV is correct about the degree, as D.O. if I had two similar candidates and one had a college degree he is the one I would look at, but it didn't make a difference what the degree was in.

Whichever way you decide to go, do your due diligence into the school, take the time to find folks who went through the program (not just the references the school will give you), and ask the hard questions.

I already had my law degree when I went into the USAF as a JAG, and I obtained my private before leaving the service, so I used all of my VA benefits for advanced ratings. The rules have changed a lot since the 70s, but I'll bet some things remain the same: Whatever info you get from the VA, get it in writing, as I was regularly given the wrong information by well-intended staffers.

I certainly agree that you should not "waste" all of your benefits getting the flight qualifications. It's just too easy to lose the ability to fly, for one reason or another (usually medical). So get a degree in something that you can use, no matter what. And if you're still able to fly, whether for pay or not, all the better.

Flying for pay part-time was good for me. I instructed and did SE charter, and I enjoyed it immensely. Now I just fly for pleasure and the occasional Angel Flight, and it's all been great.

Cary

Headoutdaplane is partially correct, and some of his advice is spot on.

First, I TOTALLY agree that a degree in "Aviation" is the wrong way to go. There are degree programs that offer degrees in things other than aviation, yet include Commercial Pilot certification. I'm no longer working for the University of Minnesota Crookston, but that's one school that has degrees in Business, Natural resources, Law Enforcement and Ag, all including commercial pilot training in a 141 program. These degrees offer "dual function" qualifications...a good thing in this economy.

Second, we generally graduated students with Comm cert. with 200 hours or less total time. That's 50 hours less than under part 61. $$$$ difference. Students have option of MEL on ther own...or not. Not required for degree.

So, we basically agree...stay away from the big aviation programs that offer a degree in "Flying". But by all means, get a degree with that GI benefit.

MTV

Headoutdaplane wrote:I will, respectfully, disagree with MTV, the 141 industry is ridiculously overpriced as a rule (they live off the student loan industry and GI Bill so the student doesn't realized the cost until years later). Just look at the price for a multi-engine cert versus a local flight school, and the result is the same cert but the 141 will be much more expensive. Also, look at the average hours really flown by students to get their certs and you will see that although 141s can legally get you through in less hours, they do not. Once you are a working pilot you will see that nobody cares if you went 141 or 61. The money you save can be uses to build hours, which is really what counts.

Anecdotally, two friends and I have done part 141 with american flyers at kdpa. We got our work done more quickly and far more professionally than the part 61 options available in the area. We were dedicated students and showed up prepared. All got through near minimums as capable pilots.

I also went the 141 route with some of my ratings, and did so quite quickly, however, I also looked into the costs in time and money when I looked into other ratings like multi and figured out that the 141 was a waste of money. My point is that the 141 industry love student loans and VA (just look at their advertising) because the student does not immediately feel how much they are paying and therefore get overcharged.

A 141 rating is the same as a 61. While the training at a 141 can be as good as a 61, I have found in my position as a DO that 141 students, generally, are not as good at stick and rudder flying as 61, and worse have been told "this is the way to do ______" so many times that it is harder to get them to learn new techniques. Some 141s have gone to all glass cockpit fleets, the students have no concept how to fly on 'steam gauges' or even with a partial panel, this is not realistic. The industry where the vast majority of new professional pilots will start in, have the 'six pack' and these folks need further training on how to safely fly them.

My point is for him to look at the overall costs of his ratings and not just take the option that offers the easiest access to VA or Student Loans, which in the long run will use up more of his available educational dollars.

I do feel like the part 141 VA approved flight schools are way too much money. I wish I could use my GI bill at the part 61 flight school that is 2 minutes from my house, but I can't. My only options close to where I live if I want to use the GI Bill are a 40 and a 60 minute drive. I'm choosing the more expensive place because its the closest, also close to work for me and will be more convenient. Unfortunatley, my VA money won't go as far. The place I'm going to get my instrument/commercial training charges $186 an hour for an O-300 powered 172 and an instructor! I think it's $217 or something for a newer 180hp 172 or a Cardinal RG. $56 of that amount is just for the instructor .Compare that to $65 an hour dry for a 2006 Archer III at my local flight school plus $30 for instructor and fuel at 5.25 a gallon. Even though it is an Air Force operated flying club I can't use my GI Bill there because it is part 61 and not VA approved.

Yeah, we'll, a military flying club dry rate compared to reality??? And, $56 an hour for GOOD instruction is a great deal. Try calling your friendly local xerox repairman sometime......bring your own Vaseline....they charge extra for that.

Flight instructor?? Isn't that the person whose primary function is to keep YOU alive while you learn to fly. A bonus is that most of them will also help you learn while they're at it.

The down side is that the instructor is probably only getting $13 or $14 an hour, but the school takes most of the risk.

Life.......it ain't fair.

Still beats the alternative, I reckon. If you can rent an Archer for that price, I'd fly the pants off that thing to build time. That is NOT a reasonable price.

MTV

I guess I'm just not used to those klnd of prices. $56 an hour is still way above the average compared to other flight schools in the area. No way in hell I would go there if the VA wasn't paying for it.

robw56 wrote:I guess I'm just not used to those klnd of prices. $56 an hour is still way above the average compared to other flight schools in the area. No way in hell I would go there if the VA wasn't paying for it.

Well, I hope you never go looking for top quality flight training.

Best of luck to you.

MTV

How do I know which flight school offers quality flight instruction? If it's expensive does it automatically make it better? There are 2 options for me with in an hour drive for a part 141 VA approved flight schools. One charges $56.10 an hour for instruction and $126.48 an hour for a 172. The other charges $45.00 an hour for instruction and $108.00 an hour for a 172. That's a difference of almost $30 an hour. I don't see why there should be that big of a difference. They are both part 141 VA approved schools preparing you to take and pass the same checkride(s).

How old is the equipment, and how's maintenance? How busy are they...ie: are instructors flying enough to eat?

You're talking about how much the SCHOOL charges for the instructor. How much of that does the CFI get? Does the CFI receive any benefits besides base pay? This all effects how long they stay, and how experienced they are.

How much insurance does the school carry, and does it cover YOU if you break something? Lots of schools do NOT insure the student. Break an airplane and their insurance may subrogate against you.

What other facilities does the school offer....simulators, briefing rooms, hangared airplanes, etc?

The outfit I most recently worked with charged $56 an hour for instruction, BUT they carry massive insurance, that insurance covers the instructor and student, and the instructors actually get benefits as well, including the "normal" plus discounted rates, continuing training, etc.

Frankly, most people learning to fly don't do ANY shopping around, or research prior to choosing a school. Just because its a 141 program doesn't mean that it's better or worse than a 61 program.

But, I've seen schools flying VERY tired airplanes, with lots of down time, instructors that cycled through because they couldn't eat on the pay they got, etc.

Ask some questions....ask for contact information for graduates. Ask to see completion times for students....and not just one. How's their maintenance?

Etc. I'm always amazed that many folks don't put any effort into a little research before committing to a flight program. Takes a little work......

And, by the way the first school I flew with was a train wreck, and I learned this the hard way.

MTV

Comparing military aeroclubs' rates to "downtown" rates is like comparing apples to onions--the only thing in common is that both are spherical. Although it was eons ago, and the prices will shock you, when I learned to fly at the EDF Aeroclub in 1972-3, if memory serves, 150s went for $11/hour and 172s went for $13. At Merrill, typical 150s went for $22 and 172s were $27. Instructors at EDF were paid $5 or $6, and downtown it was $12-15.

Incidentally the EDF club was a 141 school; I have no idea whether VA benefits could be used there. When I got out and started using my VA benefits, it was at a part 61 school in Laramie, where I later worked as a part-time instructor and SE charter pilot.

Sometimes the choices of schools are dictated by the limited offerings within a reasonable distance. For instance, there was only one plus the UW flying club in Laramie, which at the time was only open to UW staff and students. The nearest alternative schools were in Cheyenne (50 miles) or Fort Collins (65 miles).

Cheyenne's was VA-approved, but they ran it like they didn't care at all about their students--which is why I never got my ME. I went there for my first ME lesson--"Sorry, your instructor had to take a charter." Made down payment anyway, then reschedule, drive over the hill again, same story. Reschedule again, drive over the hill again, same story--this time I told them to give me my money back and cancel the program. First I was told that they never refunded down payments, but I'd have to reschedule again. I insisted on seeing the manager. When he balked but finally said he'd mail me a check the next week or two, I told him either I got my money back right then or I'd be suing them tomorrow. He went into his office and wrote me a check.

But if there are several choices in the area, check them all out. Ask questions, listen to the answers, look at their equipment, compare prices--not totals, but per hour, because totals mean nothing unless they add the caveat that everyone learns at his/her own pace. But don't compare their prices to a military aeroclub, because you're back to the apples/onions issue.

Cary

SD,

The "old" GI Bill won't reimburse you until you've finished your PVT, and after that you can only use your benefits at a VA approved Pt 141 school. If you convert your benefits to the New GI Bill, not only do you get your benefits bumped up to $89,000, but you can use them from day one of your PVT training onward. You still have to conduct your training at a VA Pt 141 school. I'm very familiar with the Ventura area, I'm sure there's a 141 school at Camarillo, don't know about Oxnard. I know Santa Paula doesn't have one, but you'd be well served to go there for soem good spin/unusual attitude training.

Mike-
(24 year AD CWO)