Yep, the finest quality of the interwebby, it brings out the asshole in everyone. Don't forget, most of us are just a bunch of bored dudes living in the middle of nowhere. Busting a joke on the net is the highlight of our day.

I see you're from my neck of the woods, perhaps you could come to our annual fly-in and see what all this anti reverse high speed fuss is all about.

FWIW, I cannot find in the FARs any restriction on using a reverse high speed or an intersecting runway as a means of taxiing off of the landing runway. Not that it isn't there, because finding anything in the FARs is seldom easy, but I'd sure like to see an FAR reference to this thing that "everybody knows".

Cary

Okay, maybe...just maybe, I got a little "huffy". Sorry.

As to the FAR reference, there isn't one. The pilots I know that got busted got the catch all "Careless and Reckless", and "Deviating from ATC clearance" as I recall.

It is, however, in the AIM. It states:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Notice the reverse course bit. That's the problem. If you exit on a reverse high speed (one that is 45 degrees or so to the opposite direction) then you are reversing course. They can and have violated pilots for this. Just get permission before you do it or go on down to the next taxiway and all is good.

Sorry I got pissy, I'll try to work on that. I really do envy you guys. Between my wife and I we easily clear 6 figures but for the life of me I can't figure out how to afford a plane to take my boys up. Really makes me sad. I'd love to go somewhere neat, camp out, fish and bore holes in the sky with them. Tell the truth, I blame fricken lawyers for making my dream so far away. I can't think of any reason for a brand new Cessna 172 to cost one penny more that a brand new Ford Taurus. But guess what...it does, by a lot. Crazy world we live in.

Sorry again and fly safe,
GP

There are a boatload of used C172's out there for less $$$ than a Ford Taurus.

Gump

Using the reverse is fairly common at some airports, landing on 24R at LAX is one instance. On the other hand there is no place for an airplane landing on 24L to go using that forward high speed so in practical terms you wouldn't come face to face with another airplane trying to cross to another ramp. I did read another thread on the subject and several Canadians said no way in Canada so I guess ask before you do it is the best answer.

mountainmatt wrote:Yep, the finest quality of the interwebby, it brings out the asshole in everyone. Don't forget, most of us are just a bunch of bored dudes living in the middle of nowhere. Busting a joke on the net is the highlight of our day.

I see you're from my neck of the woods, perhaps you could come to our annual fly-in and see what all this anti reverse high speed fuss is all about.

you can't say Asshole here and what's high speed anyway...

GlassPilot wrote:Y'all know what? Take the fricken reverse. Get violated, no skin off my nose. Just thought I'd try to share a little here. I know I don't really fit here except for the fact that I'm supremely envious and would love to do what you all do.

Whatever. Do what you want. I recommend you don't take a reverse high speed but do it if you want. I can't believe I can't get an ounce of support here, just jokes.

Fly safe and see ya.

I for one want to thank you! I was not aware of this and will definitely take this into consideration next time I fly into APA.

GumpAir wrote:

z3skybolt wrote: Lets not chase him away. General aviation is dying of natural causes anyway. No reason to scare away the kid hanging on the fence.

Happy trails (or contrails) to you

Yeah, on re-reading my post didn't come out like I intended. Glass, do not take offense to our kidding around. That's what we, and especially what I seem to do best. I don't take life real seriously, and I don't take my talking about flying in general real seriously. Some subjects I do, and I try and post technical info the best I can based on my experiences. And in PM's I think I've helped steer some new guys in a good direction if/when they look at careers in Alaska. Mostly I warn them of the dumb things I did for a living up there. So, I think we all appreciate advice, both off-pavement, and on-pavement.

But, no matter how serious a thread, sooner or later it gets twisted, and we're off and running like a bunch of ADHD kids. Can't help it. However it is not you we're making fun of or ignoring.

Gump

Same goes for me, no offense meant! Though it did take me a couple reads to put together what type of aircraft activity you were referring to, then I found it interesting there was debate over the proper procedure, guess I thought all that was cast in stone.

Where else on the internet can you get back to back posts on reverse high speed exits in an airliner and crossing your snowboard tracks you made in the morning with your experimental skiplane later the same day? Right about now would be a good time for one of the shuttle astronauts (assuming they follow this site...) to chime in with a comment about post and pre launch procedures or some other detail of space flight, just to further broaden the range of aircraft represented. I've always thought hitting the back button isn't that hard and don't mind doing so if I find no interest in a post by others, it's great having the wide range of flying experience here!

I don;t recall if I've ever taken a high-speed turnoff the wrong way ("reverse highspeed") at a towered airport, but one of the uncontrolled fields I go too fairly often it's either do that, or roll a helluva lot longer way down the runway to the next one. (The reverse highspeed makes for a pretty long rollout too for that matter). Never knew there was any kind of FAR against it. I wouldn't want to do it in a long kerosene burner though.

If it's non-towered (tower is closed) then it's not a problem. If you read my AIM reference above it says you need ATC approval to stop or reverse course. If there is no tower then YOU are ATC and can approve your own reverse. Heck, you can back taxi the whole runway if yo want. It's non-towered.

As to long / large jets it's not a problem. Think about it, even if they take the high speed they are still left with a 135 degree turn to turn back on the the taxi way that parallels the runway. The point being that in order to make that 135 degree turn they have to slow way down to make it. By then they are talking to ground. That's why you need tower permission to take the reverse high speed. If he approves you slowing way down to make the turn on the runway then fine. They just don't want pilots doing it on their own and screwing up the flow and spacing of arrivals.

The guys I know that got busted for this forced a go-around of some 121 carrier because they took the reverse. To make matters worse the captain then got "lippy" with ATC because he, I'm guessing like a lot here, didn't think he did anything wrong.

30 day suspension for him and a letter for the FO was the FAA's response to that.

Glasspilot:
Yes, you do need to get into the 'fun' end of the flying spectrum. My advice is to make it happen. To hell with 'keeping up with the Jones'......' If you don't have to give up air, food, shelter of some sort, or one other activity we are all pretty fond of, MAKE IT HAPPEN. Maybe on a smaller scale, or with partners, or whatever, (where there is a will, there is a way)........

Of course if you have a spouse/SO who doesn't concur/understand/tolerate.......that is a different bucket of fish.

We all wish you well-no matter what, though......
lc

Gump
You sure it was the power of that new motor,and not the slideing sideways through the mud, that rolled that foreskin back? I have heard tell that there are guys out there that like to play with their toys in the dirt.

I also want to thank Glasspilot for pointing this out. I flight instruct at Colorado Springs airport and often use 17L in which we normally take the reverse high speed in order to save taxi time back to the military side of the ramp. This rule has never really been pointed out. I will bring it up at our monthly safety meeting and CFI standardization meeting.

You definitely have to take MountainMatt up on his offer to attend his annual fly-in. It will give you a chance to see what getting away from a normal airport is all about. You'll have a great time for sure. Did someone say watermellons?

Use of the reverse highspeed...

...is common place and often requested by both ATC and pilots....even in large, heavy aircraft. Just don't do it without asking or being requested by ATC at controlled airports. Some airport tower controllers could care less even if you don't ask. Others will bust your chops if you do it without request or approval. As pointed out it usually depends on the traffic situation.

Don't try it in Canada!! I did at Vancouver once in 767 without "thinking". Got my butt politely chewed all the way to the gate.

Now back to those "backcountry flying threads" about ...politics, religion, economics, lawyers, sex and even....MOLES or is it VOLES!!

Have fun.

bob

I am glad the tone of this string has become more friendly. I understand where Glass Pilot is coming from. I tend to fly a lot of IFR and stop at paved runway airports while getting to the back country. I wish it was as carefree as the old barnstorming days, but its not. There are lots things to learn from those who share their experiences. When someone offers advice on how to avoid FAA actions, I'm all ears.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the subject:
I believe that your exit stradegy from the runway has to have contingencies. While it is my intention to set her down in the touchdown zone, a gust of wind, or a less than stable approach can change the best laid plans. While it may not require a go-around, you may end up exiting farther down than you hoped or planned for. The pilot is still in charge though. If the controller asks you to expedite your roll out or asks you to turn off where you cannot, then let them know you cannot safely do it. Can't imagine a situation where this would get you into trouble with the FAA. The word "Unable" can always be used by any pilot in command (unless they just don't want to comply and otherwise could).

Alternately, you should not immediately think of ways to impress the controllers by jumping off at the first available high speed (especially one that is intended for traffic travelling in the opposite direction). When able to accommodate, you should, but never allow others' problems to become yours. If the controller has them lined up like dancing girls on the approach with 1 mile spacing and you're being asked to make haste in an effort to make the controllers' job less difficult, only do what you can do without creating more risk for you. Of coarse you must communicate that you are "unable".

Finally:
A reference to the AIM was sited earlier. I was under the impression that the AIM is not "must do", but more like "should do" and the FARs were the rules. If the only references are found in the AIM, are you required to comply? (ex AIm says to use a standard patern entry , but straight-ins can be made legally)

I agree, I always thought the AIM was a list of "shoulds" and the FARs were a list of "musts".

But this has me thinking otherwise. The AIM reference in question doesn't really help. It says, "Pilots must do the following.....they should not stop or reverse course."

The situation that got my friend violated was on approach tower told them to expedite off the runway as there was a plane close behind. The Captain was flying and elected to take the reverse. FO suggested they not but the Captain overruled him and the exited on the reverse.

Ground gave them a number to call.

When the Captain called he stood by his conviction that while landing he owned the runway and would get off where ever he pleased. That ticked them off and tower made a report to the FAA.

The FAA investigated and found the crew had acted "careless and reckless" and "deviated from ATC clearance".

The moral being when tower tells you to "Get Off My Runway" stopping and reversing course are not what he means. Like I said earlier, 30 days with no pay for the skipper and a nice letter for the FO.

They were not busted for breaking an AIM rule. But the Feds were not impressed with the reversal of course on the runway when specifically told to get the hell off the runway...quickly. Getting in a pissing match on the phone afterwards certainly didn't help the situation. A hat-in-hand-looking-at-your-shoes attitude probably would have gone a long ways.

The only thing I can do to protect myself is never take the reverse without permission. I ALWAYS ask to get off on a runway or reverse...no exceptions. And if that means physically taking the plane from my FO then so be it. Normally I get the required permission, if I can't for some reason I simply ask the FO to just continue. If he refuses then I'm really left with the last resort of taking control of the ship.

When that last thing happened the other day I figured I'd post here to share (and maybe vent a touch).

Times like that I wish I was on a dirt strip...sheesh.

Glass
Hey, consider yourself lucky my FO can't taxi or even fly for that matter but she is cute so she can sit in the right seat any time she wants.

Whats a tower? Just kidding.
We are all here to help and learn from each other. Most on this sight if not all fly low and slow. So please don't get upset . One day it will be your turn to give a ribbing to others. We are all Brothers and Sisters of the sky.


Be safe, Ken in Alaska