Pinecone wrote:First ski TO and landings for both me and the airplane yesterday. Fellow facing the camera accompanied to keep me safe. Looking forward to more tomorrow.

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Yes, "keeping you safe", and notice the big grin! He's probably thinking of all the things he will tell you, that will only really sink in after you experience them! Be prepared for a big learning experience, and as I have mentioned before, I swear steam is coming off the top of my head sometimes, no hat required, as I'm cogitating so hard, much harder then any other flying I do all year.

I am tired of not having anything to do in the winter besides snowboard and ski fly, so am ordering one of these for my fat ebike today: http://www.fatbikeskis.com. Yes, a fattie can be ridden in much of the snow conditions, as is, without a front ski, and a lot of times it can't. The videos convinced me, letting the front ski stay up on top means the rear tire doesn't dig a hole, trying to push a entrenched front tire. Plus, I'm guessing the ski somewhat compacts the snow, for the rear. I'm sure there will be snow conditions where it will suck, just like in ski flying, but I think on my ride just this morning, it would have made all the difference in not bogging down like shown in this pic.

Just like plane skis, it seems to be quite expensive for what you get! But I think that, again just like plane skis, a properly engineered and fabricated ski and it's attach method takes a lot of screwing around to achieve, sure I could probably take an old snowboard and cobble something up, but after watching the videos of riders carving their turns, I decided to take the easy way out and just order the damn thing. I also feel almost an obligation, as the manufacturer must be somewhat of a nut to put the time and money into this thing that he apparently has (some patents involved) and it would be a shame if no one equally nutty bought one.

No flying today, again, that picture was brightened up in editing, and yeah it really is that gloomy here today, with viz dropping to a couple hundred yards now and then as a fog bank sweeps by.

http://www.fatbikeskis.com = $800

Pretty good value if it does what they claim...pretty expensive if it doesn't. I wonder what the learning curve is for carving with it? I'll be interested to hear your report. One downside...you won't be crossing any patches of dirt or rocks or pavement with it.

I just pulled the trigger on it 5 minutes ago, (the manufacturer was out skiing all weekend) so yeah, it better work! I firmly expect a steep learning curve. I expect to rear wheelie it out of the shop, walking next to it, holding onto the handles bars, as a way to transit gravel etc. It should arrive mid week, I figured I missed enough powder days this year at my local area due to a busy craning schedule, I deserved to splurge a bit!

I got a tip today from some other fatbikers about tire pressure, after I bitched a bit about bogging down, turns out my 2.75 lbs PSI was TOO HIGH, (even though it felt real squishy) so I lowered it to 2 , and it really made a difference. Some I'm told go even lower

pburns wrote:

courierguy wrote:Fun isn't it? The differing snow conditions on landing and takeoff "rolls" distance, and room needed to turn around, sure keep it interesting. Yeah, being able to crawl home if needed is a confidence builder for sure, I think the same but have yet to utilize that backup plan.

Definitely fun stuff. So far I am having a ball. Lots of variables though for sure. One thing I had a bit of a hard time with yesterday was depth perception.Once over the lake it was tough to judge my altitude agl. There was a set of ski tracks across the lake which gave me a great landing target. I found myself too high for every landing, but not too high where I couldn't slip it in and I only really overshot by 100' once. The other landings were all within 10' of those tracks. On the slips though, it was hard to tell if I was going straight or drifting one way or the other until I could find my previous tracks to line up with. I did fly around and look at a couple of other lakes close to the road, but they were all cut up with snowmobile & ATV tracks so I didn't land on any.

Depth perception, especially in flat light is challenging. If the landing surface is suitable, you might try landing next to shore. The trees or any familiar sized object will make all the difference in judging your touchdown.

A few other tips for folks new to skis:

Unless you're flying a Garrett, make left turns. Airplanes like turning left.

Skis have a sweet spot just like floats. Get out on a long lake and practice finding the sweet spot at about half your takeoff speed. It's usually somewhere with the tailwheel just barely above the surface. It makes all the difference.

Have a reject spot for your takeoff, specifically on downhills with obstacles below (glaciers with crevasses). If you are not beginning to accelerate at this point, shut down and try again.

Give your skis a good kick or three right before you load up. If you suspect snow stuck to your skis, use a tie-down rope to clean the bottoms.

When able, it's a lot easier to pack a runway with the plane before you land than with your snowshoes after.


Nothing quite like flying skis.

I find myself often rocking onto one ski, at least partially, like float planes do, to get that last little bit of takeoff speed. I take my tie down kit out for the winter, but make sure to take my tie down ropes, one use is as you said.....right now I'm also packing 100'+ of mule tape (for those that don't know, synthetic webbing used for pulling wire through conduit, light, strong, and cheap) plus a rope comalong. Both never used, yet. T

Great pic!

TradeCraft wrote:Skis have a sweet spot just like floats. Get out on a long lake and practice finding the sweet spot at about half your takeoff speed. It's usually somewhere with the tailwheel just barely above the surface. It makes all the difference.

TradeCraft wrote:Give your skis a good kick or three right before you load up. If you suspect snow stuck to your skis, use a tie-down rope to clean the bottoms.

Great advice, especially the rope trick. I had actually thought about what I would do and every other scenario had me wallowing in the snow on my stomach with a wax scraper or hatchet.

OK hopefully this isn't a stupid question (it wouldn't be my first), but I have worked in ski shops (alpine & Nordic) my entire adult life and own a rental/tuning shop for alpine gear. Does anyone wax the skis on their plane? I was thinking about the potential ice build up if you land on a lake with a slushy layer underneath. Would a low flouro paste wax, like a F-4 or something make any sense, or is that just dumb?

courierguy wrote:I find myself often rocking onto one ski, at least partially, like float planes do, to get that last little bit of takeoff speed.

Excellent advice, thanks guys.

Pinecone wrote:First ski TO and landings for both me and the airplane yesterday. Fellow facing the camera accompanied to keep me safe. Looking forward to more tomorrow.

Congrats! Hopefully I can get out again this week. We just got 4"-5" of wet heavy snow and its turning colder, so I'm not sure what the snow will be like.

Pete

Ski related, so I'm posting this here, the ebike forum crowd has to put up with my flying inputs, you guys can stand a little bike stuff, or move on.

Got my fat ebike ski today I mentioned earlier. EXCELLENT quality throughout, especially the trick hardware and beautiful welding on the attach brackets. Installation, including taking off the front wheel and front brake disc, took about half an hour, and everything bolted right up as it should. Going back to the front tire will take 10 minutes. The ski itself is purpose built,not a modification of something else, has skegs and edges, and quite a few more sq. inches then I expected, should be real floaty.

Before I knew it, I was ready for a test ride, I racked it back onto the rear tire and wheel barrowed it out of the shop. I already have plans for a slip on wheeled dolly of some sort, for moving it over gravel or pavement more easily, light enough to carry on the bike, I'm a wheel/ski guy not a straight ski guy, after all. Once outside, as luck would have it my former neighbor Nichole happened by, and since the bike doesn't have a kickstand I put her to work as a bike model. It was the least she could do, after I took her ski flying last year). Right at that time the sun came out, first time all day, and we had about 15 minutes before it slipped behind the ridge. I rode down the unplowed road for a ways, and then headed off into the virgin snow, about 2-3' deep, as I had hoped and somewhat expected, the front ski made it MUCH easier for the rear tire, both in less drag and also compacting the snow just enough for the rear to stay on top. I rode up about 400' vertical in no time, turned it downhill, and almost immediately starting carving turns, (the tracks in the background were made by some backcountry riff raff, but when I came down I was able to parallel them more or less) it handled great and should be a ball to ride Finally, something to do during the winter.

courierguy wrote:Ski related, so I'm posting this here, the ebike forum crowd has to put up with my flying inputs, you guys can stand a little bike stuff, or move on.

Looks pretty cool. A lot of fat tires around here, but I haven't seen any of the skis yet, even though they are manufactured only a couple of hours from here.

Had a fun day yesterday. Met a friend with his Cub and we pond/lake hopped to Raquette Lake to meet a couple of other Cub owners for lunch.

When I first saw this plume of snow from a distance, my first thought was to fly through it, then cooler heads prevailed and I just took this picture. Now that's a snow blower!

I need a snowblower like that!!

pburns wrote:

TradeCraft wrote:Skis have a sweet spot just like floats. Get out on a long lake and practice finding the sweet spot at about half your takeoff speed. It's usually somewhere with the tailwheel just barely above the surface. It makes all the difference.

TradeCraft wrote:Give your skis a good kick or three right before you load up. If you suspect snow stuck to your skis, use a tie-down rope to clean the bottoms.

Great advice, especially the rope trick. I had actually thought about what I would do and every other scenario had me wallowing in the snow on my stomach with a wax scraper or hatchet.

OK hopefully this isn't a stupid question (it wouldn't be my first), but I have worked in ski shops (alpine & Nordic) my entire adult life and own a rental/tuning shop for alpine gear. Does anyone wax the skis on their plane? I was thinking about the potential ice build up if you land on a lake with a slushy layer underneath. Would a low flouro paste wax, like a F-4 or something make any sense, or is that just dumb?

Pete

As TradeCraft noted, a quick, kind of gentle kick sideways on the toe of the skis will usually shear any frost off the bottoms if you do so just prior to boarding. Just don't haul off an REALLY give them a boot....those axles don't like a lot of torque, and there's a pretty serious lever arm at the toe of a ski.

One way to minimize freeze down is when you taxi up to park, stop the plane BEFORE you get to the parking spot, and let the ski bottoms cool off for 20 or 30 seconds, then taxi forward ten feet, stop, and let them cool more. Then move forward to your parking spot...just a few feet. Those bottoms warm up from friction during landing and taxi, and warm bottoms will frost up.

Second, when I park in kinda deep snow, I take out a shovel and shovel out from under the front and the aft part of the skis, leaving the ski resting on a pedestal of snow just under the axle, and another at the very stern of the ski. That let's air circulate under most of the ski bottom, which will prevent most frost.

I know guys who've waxed their airplane skis, and it probably helps a bit, but that stuff wears off really fast, so unless you're willing to re-wax them about every time you fly...... Personally, I never worried about it. Follow the advice above, if you're going to park overnight, try to get a board, plastic bag or something under the skis, or as I noted, dig out from under most of the bottoms.

In the morning, pre flight, uncover the plane, get everything ready to go, give the toe of each ski a gentle sideways kick, climb aboard and go flying.

MTV

Pinecone wrote:First ski TO and landings for both me and the airplane yesterday. Fellow facing the camera accompanied to keep me safe. Looking forward to more tomorrow.

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I'm not a fan of those attach fittings for the limit cables attached to the gear. Better to have the ski tab up high on the cowl, and the aft fittings attached to the aft float fittings. Gives much better geometry to the limit cables. Trust me, you do NOT want one of those skis to go over on you......that's the beginning of a very bad day.

MTV

pburns wrote:OK hopefully this isn't a stupid question (it wouldn't be my first), but I have worked in ski shops (alpine & Nordic) my entire adult life and own a rental/tuning shop for alpine gear. Does anyone wax the skis on their plane? I was thinking about the potential ice build up if you land on a lake with a slushy layer underneath. Would a low flouro paste wax, like a F-4 or something make any sense, or is that just dumb?

Pete

Like MTV posted above, most reports have discouraged me from trying it because it sounds like it wears off pretty quickly. But with your knowledge of ski tuning, you might be able to get better results? e.g. None of the accounts I've heard have included structuring the ski bases prior to waxing them. Airplane ski bottoms are traditionally covered in UHMW plastic, which is the same formulation as downhill skis, right? Or maybe blend in some Moly Fluor (with molybdenum), which improves the longevity of glide wax on nordic skis. The mushing community has wax-impregnated runner plastic for their dog sleds- that would be neat to try if you could get a big enough sheet at a reasonable price. Would be neat to do some experimentation. In the end though, I just opted for more horsepower.

-DP

Interesting, wax impregnated, wow. I just ordered in a sheet of plain old white UHMW, when I needed a redo on one ski, after checking with the OEM of my Datum's, and it was pricey enough! But now I have enough for 3 more big mistakes! I think being forewarned of the freeze issue largely has made me avoid doing it. No problems the last several seasons now that I am wise to it. I always use MTV's tip of stopping almost, going ahead a bit, as they cool down. As for parking overnight, my hangar has radiant floor heat and that seems to sidestep the problem nicely I'm too big a pussy to leave my plane outside all night, it's spoiled.

I just saw the Harrison Ford movie "Call of the Wild", and in one scene some tenderfoots are whipping the dogs to get 'em going, and Ford straightens them out right quick, popping the sleds runners up which were froze down, no UHMW back then I guess. BTW:the dog characters are either the best damn dog actors ever, or some kind of animated creatures. Not cartoon like at all,the tech behind the movie is new to me anyway, and extremely realistic how they interact with the humans.

mtv wrote:One way to minimize freeze down is when you taxi up to park, stop the plane BEFORE you get to the parking spot, and let the ski bottoms cool off for 20 or 30 seconds, then taxi forward ten feet, stop, and let them cool more. Then move forward to your parking spot...just a few feet. Those bottoms warm up from friction during landing and taxi, and warm bottoms will frost up.

Thanks for the tip! I also had a commercial float plane operator who flies skis in the winter tell me to do a circle after landing on a lake and if the tracks fill in with water or slush, park in those tracks.

denalipilot wrote:Like MTV posted above, most reports have discouraged me from trying it because it sounds like it wears off pretty quickly. But with your knowledge of ski tuning, you might be able to get better results? e.g. None of the accounts I've heard have included structuring the ski bases prior to waxing them. Airplane ski bottoms are traditionally covered in UHMW plastic, which is the same formulation as downhill skis, right? Or maybe blend in some Moly Fluor (with molybdenum), which improves the longevity of glide wax on nordic skis. The mushing community has wax-impregnated runner plastic for their dog sleds- that would be neat to try if you could get a big enough sheet at a reasonable price. Would be neat to do some experimentation. In the end though, I just opted for more horsepower.

I have a old set of Federals which are aluminum, and at this point in the season I am sick of tuning/waxing skis, so I will probably just let them be. I bet a structure would probably help though for the plastic bases, especially in wet snow. Finding someone to let you run them through their stone grinder might be tough. That's pretty cool on the dog sled runners. I wonder if they switch out based on track conditions?

I did get out over the weekend, but had to land on lakes that had snowmobile traffic. Any lakes that are not tracked out have a very dense layer with a crust and a slush layer on top of the ice.

Pete

Pete, I'm not a high time ski pilot,but if I drag my skis and the tracks fill with water, I'm not landing that spot. How do you know how deep the overflow is? Don't want to leave my plane like this guy had to... https://yukonflying.com/DaveStorey.html

pburns wrote:That's pretty cool on the dog sled runners. I wonder if they switch out based on track conditions?

Pete

As a matter of fact they do, based on different ambient temperatures. In that link there's two different temperature runners. Comparatively easy switch on a dog sled, on a plane, not so much.

-DP

The Peruvian cowboy missed these glass posts and wire this fall, and I found them. On the dry farm that's all around my place, all on a 8 to 16% grade, I at first thought it was a weed of some type, then when I realized what it was I slammed on the brakes just in time, (a ski flying joke.) THEN I saw the pretty heavy wire that just maybe could have added to the fun, but better me finding it then the swather (mower?, the piece of equipment that cuts the grass before they bale it, I'm no rancher/ farmer I just live here) where it would have been hidden. I'll have to give him hell about it come spring.

I came to a stop, and the snow was just sticky enough to not let me slide backwards so I got out and carefully worked the plane sideways, always very careful about torquing on the gear legs too much. One of those things that would have never occurred to me back when I first started ski flying until I read about on this site and others, a much better way to get educated then while welding up new gear legs.

courierguy wrote:THEN I saw the pretty heavy wire that just maybe could have added to the fun, but better me finding it then the swather (mower?, the piece of equipment that cuts the grass before they bale it, I'm no rancher/ farmer I just live here) where it would have been hidden.

Damn, CG- I love your posts, but I also have kids that are learning to diagram sentences in school- I get twisted notions about presenting them with one of these beauties. Don't ever change!
-DP