It was gusty,video doesnt do much justice, but airspeed indicator shows it

That was a good workout, thanks for sharing. What time of day was that?

Have you been to Tieton yet this season? Looking for an idea of surface conditions

Thanks, going by there this afternoon, strip looks in good shape. Thinking about your VG's and the gust spread: must be a more comfortable margin vs being too fast and running out of room or too slow and having the bottom drop out.

Tieton is in great shape, been 3 times already, some cow $$ thats all.

This approach again the AoA indicator makes things a bit easier, I came with 3 yellows to compensate for the gusts but it wont float.
VGs do help with authority at slow speeds so they are nice to have too.

Nicely done. Another beautiful day in the Washington Backcountry.

I've not been to Stehikin in a while. I found it's roughness to be a little past the degree my airplane prefers. Was it any smoother? It looked like you had a bit of a rough ride on rollout.

Not that rough , I wouldnt worry about it .
There was a 172 with stock wheels and there have been Mooneys landing there without any problems.
You have a Maule
Lower your tires pressures a bit so you dont feel the irregularities.

It is an amazing place.

If that doesn't sell anyone on flying AOA nothing will. Well done.

StampCreek wrote:If that doesn't sell anyone on flying AOA nothing will. Well done.

It was a nice approach, good flying. But, Stehekin isn't that short, either. It's like 2500 feet long. People have been landing stock Cessnas in there for years without STOL kits, VGs, or AOA indicators.

The trees have come up around it though on the southeast end, making steeper approaches necessary. But with what looked in the video to be about a 10-12 kt wind on the nose, why not carry a few extra knots of airspeed, shallow out the approach a little, and give yourself just a little margin from the trees and dirty air?

A friend pancaked his 182 at Big Creek years ago, severely damaging the nose gear, in some dirty afternoon air after not being able to arrest a big downdraft on short final. Who knows if a little extra airspeed would have made a difference...

The extra speed is fine on approach agreed, but I found once you flare with gusty winds with extra speed you are floating for a bit and vulnerable to any gusts to lift your wing one side, lift your nose make you float , and corrections and start eating runway, specially when you have the STOL kit and VGs.

By flying the AoA indicator I got more info than the airspeed indicator and flew 3 yellow lights, and that tells me I have lift to compensate for gusts and not so much that will make me float down the runway.That is why the stall horn only goes off at the end before touch down.

What I would change in this conditions next time? I would be to come higher and aim for the middle of the runway,where the gusts should be smoother since I dont have the big trees at the threshold, since it is not short and a bit uphill, there is plenty of room to stop.

Agreed no need for STOL kit or bigger tires for this strip, there have been Mooneys and stock planes many times in and out.
Beautiful place.

aftCG this was at 10:30 AM

The best gust mitigation is rapid throttle control. If we have dealt with a gust that increases relative wind with decreased throttle, the alternating decrease in relative wind can easily be dealt with by increasing throttle. Like with any control, we have to stay ahead of the airplane.

The problem with the long and fast approach is that it becomes habit.

Motoadve, how does the AoA react to downdraft? Or when wind suddenly stops? If you are flying on a day with big gusts and coming in riding the edge, will it still drop out on you if the wind dies suddenly?

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contactflying wrote:The problem with the long and fast approach is that it becomes habit.

Who's suggesting that? Why would such a thing become habit? Why can't a pilot tailor their approach to the situation at hand like a good ape?

Why is there not a like button.....

Cool place. Cool vid. And ya... I think I might pre program 1% of my landings...Everything else gets what the immediate situation dictates, when and as it dictates it. That IMHO negates bad habit building.
As a general rule, I don't know what kind of landing, fast, slow, lean, steep, wheel, or 3pt, ,,, until it's all said and done...


Come to think of it, sometimes I'm not even sure what it was even then.

Take care, Rob

You are right Rob, we are oriented by principals but the tactical situation is always fluid.

Zzz wrote:

StampCreek wrote:If that doesn't sell anyone on flying AOA nothing will. Well done.

...The trees have come up around it though on the southeast end, making steeper approaches necessary. ...

A friend pancaked his 182 at Big Creek years ago, severely damaging the nose gear, in some dirty afternoon air after not being able to arrest a big downdraft on short final. Who knows if a little extra airspeed would have made a difference...

About ten years ago the WSDOT airport facilities manager had several very tall trees on the approach cut. That made a big difference. Unfortunately, his boss (the WSDOT/Aviation Director) didn't like him spending his budget on that so fired him and hired a more compliant airport facilities guy.

Not long before that fiasco the Park Service got worried about "safe zones" and escape routes in case of a big wildfire in the valley. The NPS fire managers were motivated to 'do something' by the 30 Mile Fire, a really big wildfire in 2001 that burned just two drainages north that killed four fire fighters and nearly cooked two recreationists trapped on the dead end road. Like the Chewuch River drainage, the Stehekin drainage is served by a one way road with zip in the way of openings for "safe zones". One of the suggestions offered to the NPS by a panel of 'experts' was to cut back the trees around Stehekin to the original clearing limits. I think that suggestion made about 2006 or so. In addition to recreating an opening that would offer survivable conditions to a lot of people who would otherwise likely get cooked, going to clearing limits would also have reduced some of the erratic winds at the airstrip. Memory fades quickly, and the NPS deep sixed any serious efforts to create large (like the airstrip) safe zones. I think certain politically active interest groups had some bearing on the NPS ignoring, then burying those suggested improvements .

A1Skinner wrote:Motoadve, how does the AoA react to downdraft? Or when wind suddenly stops? If you are flying on a day with big gusts and coming in riding the edge, will it still drop out on you if the wind dies suddenly?

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Downdrafts the AoA is not as reliable, I tested it at a landing just soon after I installed it, my airport in Costa Rica had a ravine on approach and downdrafts were common, so in one of the early hrs of learning the AoA indicator Im coming to land , got a downdraft instrument didnt change the visual cue, but plane was sinking , I could feel it so I wanted to test just that, and when I tried to flare there wasnt much energy available and the landing wasnt too nice, as I expected it from the feeling of sinking.

But as Contact say downdrafts and gusts you compensate with throttle response and staying ahead of the airplane, and downdrafts you feel when you get them, so I try to react accordingly when I feel them, no matter what the AoA is indicating.

In a situation like that, your AoA very likely hasn't changed - you're just flying through a sinking parcel of air. Had the runway been part of your sinking air pocket, I bet the landing would have felt completely normal!

It's important to use other indicators, visual cues and "seat of the pants" cues to recognize updrafts and downdrafts.

CamTom12 wrote:In a situation like that, your AoA very likely hasn't changed - you're just flying through a sinking parcel of air. Had the runway been part of your sinking air pocket, I bet the landing would have felt completely normal!

It's important to use other indicators, visual cues and "seat of the pants" cues to recognize updrafts and downdrafts.

Exactly couldnt agree more.

CamTom12 wrote:In a situation like that, your AoA very likely hasn't changed - you're just flying through a sinking parcel of air. Had the runway been part of your sinking air pocket, I bet the landing would have felt completely normal!

It's important to use other indicators, visual cues and "seat of the pants" cues to recognize updrafts and downdrafts.

Except that vertical accelerations can change AOA. It all depends on how active the air is, I guess.