Background – as some of you may remember, my 172 has had the Sportsman STOL system applied and has 8.50 x 6 tires on it.

Been working the bottom of the stall envelope and decided to put it to use when landing at KLAW this afternoon. Flew the pattern at 70 downwind with 10 degrees of flaps, 60 with 20 degrees of flaps on base, and 50 on final. Pitching for 50 on final was definitely different from what I have done in the past. As I crossed the threshold of the runway, I pulled out all of the power and got ready to round out and flare, I started getting “weird” feelings from the peripheral “cues”.

I felt that my approach angle was too high and that I was really going to have an “arrival” with this landing and I started to cringe at what I was doing to my poor plane. The touchdown was a little firm, but there was no bounce and the gear didn’t even seem to flex badly. Sort of like doing a real short field – I did make the first turn off with no braking.

Sadly, I didn’t have time then to do a go around and try for the higher speeds that I’m used to using but if the weather cooperates tomorrow, I plan to spend some time in the pattern looking for some answers.

Anyone else have something like this happen when playing with the bottom end of the STOL kit? DO I just need to retrain the seat of my pants?

Don

You need to learn to make power on, not power off approaches. Especially when you are playing with low speed/high sink rate approaches. You will need to increase power just as you flare to arrest the decent and cushion the landing because pulling back only increases the sink rate. Find someone that knows how to fly that type of approach to demonstrate them for you or practice at alt first. Your pitch attitude should be fairly level with full flaps, not nose up dragging it in or nose down diving for the runway.

Jason

jgerard wrote:You need to learn to make power on, not power off approaches. Especially when you are playing with low speed/high sink rate approaches. You will need to increase power just as you flare to arrest the decent and cushion the landing because pulling back only increases the sink rate. Find someone that knows how to fly that type of approach to demonstrate them for you or practice at alt first. Your pitch attitude should be fairly level with full flaps, not nose up dragging it in or nose down diving for the runway.

Jason

Yea this is how I usually fly my approaches, with just a touch of power into the flare. I had an instructor try getting me to use the "runway made, power off" but i don't care for it, i'd rather carry the power till touchdown, then power all off. that's what works for me anyway.

Atouch of power just before touch down solves alot of problems and usually tames the plane right down, especially if you are behind the curve or close to it. This is a case when the fan up front can really be your friend.

A low airspeed/high sink rate /power on approach is great for short-field op's, but it's a good idea to also practice "standard" power-off approaches. If the engine ever quits and you're used to always having some power on during your approach, there's a real possibility you're gonna come up short due to a lack of familiarity with power-off glide characteristics.
A power-off/high sink rate approach is sometimes useful, usually when you're too high. Pull the nose up to increase sink rate, when you're back on your intended glideslope you can either add power to moderate that sink rate (for shorter fields) or lower the nose for more airspeed and a flatter glide (for longer strips).

Eric

It is amazing how long a Cessna with a Sportsman STOL kit will hang in there for you. It is a great modification. Like has been said, start playing around with the power a little bit in the flare and you'll really begin to love it. Pick a calm day when you are feeling good and go for it.

gb

...and Greg just posted another video chuck full of interesting landings here:
http://vimeo.com/4288289

that is one really great thing about a cessna with the stol kit. mine also has vg's. to really make that approach work the best, u need to get the speed/power settings dial'd in. know exactly which speed and man.press setting u need to do a high/flat approach. once u have arrived at these #'s, hopefully with the help of an instructor skilled in very short field ops., you then simply flare with the power set, and then pull the power off in the flare, don't put it back on as u do in pavement ops. this is a very safe procedure when done right, and not hard on the bird.

I wonder if any of you guys ever do any of this crap more than once.

All the whining about power on and the engine quiting.

I flew with a guy this week that spent two hours telling me how when the engine quits, your gonna be in the weeds, so on a hang it on the prop power on approach guess what I shut it off.........oh were gonna die!!!! guess what jr, push the nose down hard and ill be damn we made the runway.

High flat approach, where you gonna do those? you guys are just full of bad info for the rookie thinking you guys are real pilots.

Maybe those of you that ended up in the weeds for being stupid should have that in your signature so the new guys know.

That's good stuff

I always have interesting landings in the weeds, but I thought that was the goal

weed -- did someone say land to get weed??

I agree with some of what you are saying, Push the nose down and let the plane fly onto the runway. Also again go up and try this light and get it down to where you like it , then try it at gross , whole different procedure!! Then one more time at aft CG, you will be flying a completely different airplane!!
When you get used to this, Start over and point the wing tip where you want to land, (hard slip with nose high) then all you have to do is point it down the runway and put the nose down and you are on your mains.
As some of you have said, find someone that does it a lot and buy a little gas
Most of all, fly that bird, have a big smile while your in the air and keep working it till you happy!
Be safe and have fun, don't worry about all the experts out there, we all do things just a little bit different and usually we all get on the ground safe!!
I think I'll go out and see how short I can get this Maule to land, hey the sun is shining what else should I be doing,
With it I hold the yoke all the way back, Nose real high,(full flaps and 700ft/min descent,power off) when it appears that I'm going to hit the ground I release most of the back preasure and let the mains hit the ground then I push forward and hold it there,stand on the brakes pull the yoke all the way back and sometimes even add a whole bunch of power to keep the tail down for just a second or two. usually stop in less then 200 feet! But hey thats just my 2 cents.
Have fun GT

7853H wrote:weed -- did someone say land to get weed??

Speaking of weed, anybody ever see that movie "Blow," with Johnny Depp, where the guys are trying to get a load of cocaine north of the border? This dude borrows his uncle's 210 or something, and does the harshest landing I've ever seen on this mexican road. Hilarity.

I guess I'll show my ingnorance here. I was taught (by a bush pilot) to make my short field approches power off, full flaps and carry just enough airspeed to flare with minimum float before touch down. If I'm a little high, or need to clear obstacles I slip, if I'm a little low I add power till I'm back where I need to be.

So, what's the advantage of flying the short approch behind the curve and carrying the power to the ground? Wouldn't that just make a go-around that much tougher, especially with an underpowered plane like my 150?

Phil

Bear_Builder wrote:So, what's the advantage of flying the short approch behind the curve and carrying the power to the ground? Wouldn't that just make a go-around that much tougher, especially with an underpowered plane like my 150?

When necessary, a shortfield approach can be made shorter by using power to alleviate some of the lifting requirement of the wing. This is different than just pitch-flying an approach at normal 1.1 Vso with some power... this is a lot of power and really slow. By "hanging" some of the weight on the prop instead of the wing using power and the right pitch attitude, you can essentially lower the stall speed of the aircraft. Watch some of the short landing footage of the guys at Valdez and you'll see them carrying a pretty high pitch attitude and a fair amount of power. Greg Miller does it in his videos. I guess when you really need short, that's what you have to do. I'll never get to use the technique practically in my 145hp Cessna, because you can easily approach power-off with 40 deg flaps into a place you could never takeoff from.

I can't say I'd really be brave enough to enter in that configuration and then chop the power willingly, unless I was ready to touch ground. If you're hanging on the prop and your airspeed is low, pulling power off quickly could have a less than desirable effect. I suppose Mr Scout is right, in the event the engine sputters, you can pitch down aggressively to get your airspeed back into a reasonable range, but why put yourself in a configuration that requires such a ninja maneuver to keep the aircraft in the air?

But what do I know...I fly lawnchairs. And I'm certainly not a "real" pilot.

We have similar issues Zane. I can easily stop in 300ft, but need 600 to get airborn again.

Phil

good points mr scout and zane...i suppose in nev and other parts, u dont need to drop in as we dummies here in idaho do, but we've found that somewhat high/flat approaches give u many more options should things go cow-shit on you, which sometimes happens with all these air-cooled motors we all push around. i find my best methods are derived from the freight/instructor pilots that live in those conditions daily. twin islanders loaded to the max, 206's loaded to the max, 172's and etc...i may have grown up in the mtn's in way under-powered birds, and i have a lot of respect for the "real" mtn pilots of our time...some of you guys are total pro's' i realize, but some of us wingnuts like myself have got a lot to learn...i don't know, maybe we could all learn a ton by strafing the sage-brush 50' off the deck...as some of u like to do...!

mr scout wrote:I wonder if any of you guys ever do any of this crap more than once.
All the whining about power on and the engine quiting.
...... you guys are just full of bad info for the rookie thinking you guys are real pilots.
Maybe those of you that ended up in the weeds for being stupid should have that in your signature so the new guys know.

Kinda harsh post, maybe that one belongs on the AH site? This is the kinder gentler BCP site now....

I'm one of those guys that Mr. Scout is talking about that doesn't know anything but I'll add my two cents anyways. I have tried and practiced all kinds of theories on how to fly a approach that will produce the shortest ground roll yet arrive at the ground in a reasonable fashion. Because I fly a 85 hp bird with no flaps I listen to what what others do and then modify it to fit my plane. I've tried flat approaches where I am hanging on the prop, as much I can with 85 hp, and they were marginally better than a standard approach. I've tried steep approaches and used slips to control airspeed and that has been the best so far. At the seminar I attended the other night Lori taught the approach they use and I'm really looking forward to try it. It is a steep approach, she said 4 to 4.5 degrees instead of 3.5, full flaps with the pitch of the wings level. Thinking about my standard approached, the pitch on my wings is down to maintain speed. If I reduce my wing pitch to level and keep the same speed then the horizontal component of speed will be less than before but the vertical component will be greater...ie higher decent rate. I'll fly it with some power so I can add a burst of power to arrest my decent rate at touchdown. Using this approach I can do like Scout said, push the nose over which will increase my glide rate and I'll easily reach the runway.

I work on my approaches a lot and try tons of different techniques because with my current skills I could fly out of a trip that is too short to land on.

No doubt mountain flying instruction is a good thing and the folks at McCall do a fine job BUT...remember that those instructors have to leave a way to catch you when you screw up. That "way out" is energy. So, take what they teach you, and apply it to what you already know. Try it in a controlled environment, and do what works best for you. Those folks in ID are not the final authority, and I'm sure they will tell you the same. Always remember that there are plenty of pilots way, way better than any of us who are scattered up there in the rocks somewhere.

gb