Hammer wrote:The repeater idea might work out pretty well. Three handhelds and a repeater still cost a lot less than one sat phone, plus no subscription.

Inreach looks like a great unit, but texting with a keypad is a deal killer, and I'm just not going to buy and cary a phone around to compliment it.

There are hundreds of high points around here that could work...the house itself might work. Very little human traffic around here, and virtually no traffic away from the logging roads. The area behind and above us burned many years ago and it's a pixy-sticked with down timber, making cross country travel absurdly arduous.

I have been repurposing some of the elk trails into passible fatbike trails, at least while going downhill...



Thanks for all the help!

I love it....ask a question when you’ve already decided what you want to do.

On the cost issue, remember that “repeaters, by definition need some sort of protection from the elements, a good strong antenna (mountain tops tend to be windy and often icy) AND they need power. So, now you’re looking at batteries and solar cell array, AND if any of this occurs on public land, you will be required to obtain a permit for such an installation. Assuming you want to be legal, of course.

And, none of that equipment is exactly cheap either.

But, you’ve obviously already decided that’s what you want, so go for it.



MTV

mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:The repeater idea might work out pretty well. Three handhelds and a repeater still cost a lot less than one sat phone, plus no subscription.

Inreach looks like a great unit, but texting with a keypad is a deal killer, and I'm just not going to buy and cary a phone around to compliment it.

There are hundreds of high points around here that could work...the house itself might work. Very little human traffic around here, and virtually no traffic away from the logging roads. The area behind and above us burned many years ago and it's a pixy-sticked with down timber, making cross country travel absurdly arduous.

I have been repurposing some of the elk trails into passible fatbike trails, at least while going downhill...



Thanks for all the help!

I love it....ask a question when you’ve already decided what you want to do.

On the cost issue, remember that “repeaters, by definition need some sort of protection from the elements, a good strong antenna (mountain tops tend to be windy and often icy) AND they need power. So, now you’re looking at batteries and solar cell array, AND if any of this occurs on public land, you will be required to obtain a permit for such an installation. Assuming you want to be legal, of course.

And, none of that equipment is exactly cheap either.

But, you’ve obviously already decided that’s what you want, so go for it.



MTV

Feel free not to share your advice if you're going to get butthurt when people don't follow it!

Hammer wrote:The repeater idea might work out pretty well. Three handhelds and a repeater still cost a lot less than one sat phone, plus no subscription.

Inreach looks like a great unit, but texting with a keypad is a deal killer, and I'm just not going to buy and cary a phone around to compliment it.

There are hundreds of high points around here that could work...the house itself might work. Very little human traffic around here, and virtually no traffic away from the logging roads. The area behind and above us burned many years ago and it's a pixy-sticked with down timber, making cross country travel absurdly arduous.

I have been repurposing some of the elk trails into passible fatbike trails, at least while going downhill...



Thanks for all the help!

Looks awesome, neat photo. Little human traffic and trail building, sold me!

Sounds like the repeater will be a fun project anyway and you can give a radio to visitors to keep in touch if need be as well.

mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:There are hundreds of high points around here that could work...the house itself might work. Very little human traffic around here, and virtually no traffic away from the logging roads. The area behind and above us burned many years ago and it's a pixy-sticked with down timber, making cross country travel absurdly arduous.

On the cost issue, remember that “repeaters, by definition need some sort of protection from the elements, a good strong antenna (mountain tops tend to be windy and often icy) AND they need power. So, now you’re looking at batteries and solar cell array, AND if any of this occurs on public land, you will be required to obtain a permit for such an installation. Assuming you want to be legal, of course.

Not getting into the 'what you want to do' debate, but I did formerly build and maintain radio sites professionally, many on mountaintops around Colorado.

First and foremost - once you have a site, you need access. I don't mean "hike to it" access, you need to be able to get in with some level of machinery, unless you want to schlep in building materials like concrete on your back. Even a small antenna needs a modest tower to mount on in those environments, and that needs to be in a concrete base. Possibly even guyed, but not if you keep it short enough. Rohn 25G or 45G is the usual tower used in those circumstances. You also need a very weatherproof enclosure for the equipment, as it will be rained/snowed on. Power of course, and unless you are bringing in utilities, it'll have to be a self-sufficient off the grid design. Expect to be cleaning out bugs and mouse shit regularly, it doesn't matter how well you seal the thing up - and you need airflow for cooling.

What MTV noted about ice is a serious deal on mountain sites. The tower will accrete ice just like your airplane, which dramatically increases wind resistance. If the structure is not properly built, this can cause failure at a time of year when you may not actually be able to fix it. On several of the sites I used to maintain, we would do a pre-winter preventive maintenance run, and then expect not to return until the thaw because access was exponentially more difficult - and this is on sites with actual roads going to them, utility power run up the side of the mountain, etc.

I'm not saying this to scare you away from the idea, I just want you to think about this completely. It's a major undertaking and many thousands of dollars just to get the basics going in one of these remote locations properly, and that's before you add any repeater equipment. If your house is a suitable location, then I strongly advise you pursue that first as numerous obstacles are removed from your path. A simple mast mount on the side and a radio in the corner will get it done. In either case, please install proper lightning protection. There are special devices that go inline with the antenna coax, and will ground out the strike instead of it cooking your transmitter, or worse, setting things on fire. I can't tell you how many of those I've replaced over the years, as towers/antennas attract strikes like nothing else. (If you want to stare death in the face, go up on a mountain radio site in a thunderstorm sometime...)

If you want more advice on what goes into a remote mountain radio site, shoot me a PM and we can chat. It's a decently serious undertaking, which is why most amateur clubs just rent space from commercial tower sites.

InReach isn't that horrible. I've used mine with and without phone pairing. Yes the phone is considerably easier, but unless you are having prolonged conversations, it's not as bad as it sounds. You don't use these to text like a 14 year old.

Thanks colopilot...that's a wealth of good information.

My "repeater" was going to be a bit simpler...essentially a third handheld radio attached to one of the aforementioned repeater boxes, housed in a glorified bird house and powered by a small solar panel and battery. It'd just be a mini-repeater to boost the range of handhelds in the area we spend a great deal of our time.

It might work great or it might not work worth a damn, but aside from the $270 for a handheld and a repeater box, I've got the rest of it laying around.

As a side note...I was always told not to use my radio during thunder storms, but that was often impossible. Do handheld radios attract lightning?

My bet is on won't work worth a damn.

Two inreach boxes and subscriptions isn't cheap, but they absolutely work, and they are the cheapest option that qualifies as work.

akschu wrote:My bet is on won't work worth a damn.

Two inreach boxes and subscriptions isn't cheap, but they absolutely work, and they are the cheapest option that qualifies as work.

You might well be right, but unfortunately for us two inreach's don't work, at least not until they come with dedicated keyboards. As I mentioned earlier, we don't have smartphones, don't want smartphones; don't even plan to keep our folding, button-replete cell phones which only cost us $25 a month. So we'd be stuck with the inreach alphanumerical keypad, which is unsatisfactory.

Scrolling though the alphabet to peck out a message on an alphanumeric keypad works if you're sitting by a campfire with nothing but time, or for a SOS when reaching out for help is suddenly a top priority, but it's absolutely useless for the routine updates that give people a mental map of what the other person is doing.

Think of a 30 second phone call between two people trying to change previously arranged plans and agree on a third, previously unknown plan. Now think of trying to do that by scrolling through the alphanumerical keypad to select letters. A thirty-second voice communication becomes a twenty-minute thumb workout...something neither of us will actually do, ESPECIALLY if it's cold out. We've both had a bit of frostbite in our lives, and our fingers just quit working for fine tasks in the cold.

My wife changes plans often. It's easy for her to key up and say "I'm at X and I'm going to Y and Z before coming back, so figure a couple more hours." But she's simply not going to text that with an inreach...she'll just do it and I'll be in the dark about the plans changing. The inreach does give her the ability to reach out in an emergency, knowing it will get through, and that's valuable. But if that's the only function it serves she might as well just cary a PLB and skip the monthly service fees.

In the past week I've learned a LOT more than I knew previously about the capabilities and limitations of radio communication, as well as the costs and options of satellite based systems.

A couple sat phones is the ultimate answer, but the associated costs are frankly ridiculous.

If inreach had a hardware platform that made texting reasonable it might be worth the cash, but as of now it doesn't, and isn't.

VHF/UHF has the most dead spots and the smallest range, but if it can be made to work it has a vastly lower cost and the greatest usability. Three handhelds and a repeater box is still less than $700, with no monthly fees. It'd also be rewarding to rig up a custom system that solves our problem rather than just spend a bunch of money on a satellite system that really doesn't work well for us. Of course if the radio system doesn't work then it's a fair amount of money to spend for the entertainment of trying it out.

Before I start buying radios I'll see if I can find out what inreach's future offerings are going to be. If they make a unit with an actual keyboard, that would be a potential deal changer.

Personally, I would prefer a crappy keyboard on a reliable device over a device that is easy to use but intrinsically unreliable but I think enough people have made that point.

Instead, I'll mention that I'm not a huge fan of the InReach. Our off-grid cabin is essentially on a fresh water fiord-- steep hillsides on both sides. I can't have a long conversation on the sat phone without the call dropping after a few minutes then I have to wait for the next satellite to come into view before re-establshing the call. The InReach is similarly unreliable. I have one of the older versions, so if it isn't in view of the satellite when a message comes in I won't receive that message until another message is sent or received. I send a message to myself every hour or so, so that the device connects to the satellite which then prompts it to download any queued messages. Also, I've noticed that outgoing messages to US phones (I'm in Canada) can take several hours to transmit. I've spent a lot of time on the phone with InReach customer care and they tell me the messages are sent promptly but the people I send them to tell a different story. I recently had a period where it sent my messages to the wrong recipient and sent me messages but mixed up the caller ID.

My experience is that InReach is not always reliable but I am firmly convinced it is the best option for me, despite the flaws.

You can use InReach paired to any 'phone or tablet computer that is Bluetooth-capable. The device doesn't need to be "smart". You can buy cheap tablets and 'phones on eBay. You don't need to buy any cellular plan if you're going to use the device exclusively with your InReach.

By pairing the InReach with a 'phone (tablet even better) you have a useable keyboard.

As pointed out earlier, InReach messages sometimes suffer from lengthy delays in delivery times. I've sent a test message from my InReach to my cell 'phone and got it in 30-seconds. Other times it took two hours. This is not a huge deal for me (I have a sat 'phone for back-up) but in your case it might be.

A satellite bases text device: http://www.satphonestore.com/tech-brows ... cator.html

Not cheap, but I’ll bet by the time you get done trying to get a handheld radio to function reliably as a repeater, this would look cheap by comparison.

I think you’re fooling yourself in thinking that a handheld will work reliably as a repeater. I’ve helped install, maintain and regularly use three repeaters that were done pretty much as economically as practical. It was a project, to say the least.

And, reliability in your situation is going to be essential. Give that some serious consideration before you start stuffing $$$ down that repeater concept.

If I understand your situation accurately, you’re going to assume a missed call, or a failure to call pretty seriously. Consider that in this context, the cost of a couple satellite devices might be cheap.

But, if you love to tinker, and reliability isn’t critical....

MTV

mtv wrote:A satellite bases text device: http://www.satphonestore.com/tech-brows ... cator.html

Not cheap, but I’ll bet by the time you get done trying to get a handheld radio to function reliably as a repeater, this would look cheap by comparison.

I think you’re fooling yourself in thinking that a handheld will work reliably as a repeater. I’ve helped install, maintain and regularly use three repeaters that were done pretty much as economically as practical. It was a project, to say the least.

And, reliability in your situation is going to be essential. Give that some serious consideration before you start stuffing $$$ down that repeater concept.

If I understand your situation accurately, you’re going to assume a missed call, or a failure to call pretty seriously. Consider that in this context, the cost of a couple satellite devices might be cheap.

But, if you love to tinker, and reliability isn’t critical....

MTV

Thanks MTV, I wasn't aware of those. They might hold some promise for my mission.

I have ZERO expertise in radio infrastructure, and it wouldn't surprise me too much to find that the $75 repeater box doesn't work as advertised. It might work...it might not.

Now albravo's Inreach history doesn't exactly fill my heart with bold confidence in the satellite communication network, but I'd guess that my location will have more satellites in view than his does, most of the time.

It's a puzzler. We've become accustomed to the level of communication that cell phones provide, and when you step outside that network it's difficult to replicate it with any efficiency. Frankly I'm much more comfortable with my wife being out of contact in the woods than in town, but still...

And my wife isn't anything close to helpless...fire starters, bear spray, and a .357 magnum are all standard parts of her cycling kit, and she knows how to use all of them...well. It's just nice to know what's-what when plans change. Nice to be able to cycle out and meet her at a particular junction, or not have to think about it when it's getting dark and she's not home yet, 'cause I know why.

Also damn nice to be able to come get her in the toyota when her chain breaks, or a tire gets rogered, or the damn rear derailer gets torn off by a branch, rather than her having to hump it fourteen miles in bike shoes only to get home four hours past beer-thirty.

I guess it's nice to have first world problems...

There is nothing "easy to use but intrinsically unreliable" about 2 meter or 440 communication via 5 watt radio. All kinds of things are important of course. A good antenna at the repeater site. A well designed and installed power supply. Put that stuff in a safe site with some sort of permission and I think you'll have what you need. You need to be licensed to persuade the FS to allow the thing on fed property. Start that way. I think you may find someone has already put up a suitable repeater in the area of interest. Find the local ham radio club and ask. If no-one has put one up maybe several folks can get together and spread the costs and labor around. What you are looking for doesn't need to be private.

Dan
AL7RU

NunavutPA-12 wrote:You can use InReach paired to any 'phone or tablet computer that is Bluetooth-capable. The device doesn't need to be "smart". You can buy cheap tablets and 'phones on eBay. You don't need to buy any cellular plan if you're going to use the device exclusively with your InReach.

By pairing the InReach with a 'phone (tablet even better) you have a useable keyboard.

As pointed out earlier, InReach messages sometimes suffer from lengthy delays in delivery times. I've sent a test message from my InReach to my cell 'phone and got it in 30-seconds. Other times it took two hours. This is not a huge deal for me (I have a sat 'phone for back-up) but in your case it might be.

I use an inReach at my cabin just north of 60°. The terrain in is not as steep as Albravo describes at his place. I'd rate reliability of send and receive as an 8 or 9.

Any blue tooth device with a keyboard would work great to text from. An old BlackBerry with real buttons would be excellent. Can be bought used for pennies, and doesn't need to be on a plan. Battery life should be really good with the cellular service turned off. You wouldn't need to think of it as two devices. Once the inReach is turned on and strapped on the top of your pack, it's essentially just a repeater. One that you take home everyday to charge and service. Also with the inReach, if one of you don't report in, you're easy to find. Can also be used for GPS navigation. Consider a handlebar mount for it.

Also, it's not an experiment. It's going to work. You could spend quite a bit on amateur radio, and still have to resort to a satellite based solution.

Have you spoken to your cell provider to see if they have any plans to expand the network to your area? Might not want that, but it would be a shame to spend too much, and then they suddenly erect a tower in the spring.

Some great ideas here. Been a Ham since 1963 but not very active now. I know its been mentioned but you are supposed to have a ham license if you are using any of the bands. That said it is fairly easy to get a license through a club in your main area.
You might consider getting a cheap 2/440 handheld and see how it works in your area, see if you can activate any repeaters.
You can buy a Baofeng dual band 8w one for less than $50 to get started.
There is a repeater guide online for finding the closest repeater.
I have an Inreach and use it for communications when I'am flying into remote camping/fishing regions of Maine. You couldn't get two of them and text back and forth. You can set up fixed texts that do not add to the text count for billing. I set up several that say "landed safely setting up camp" or where are you now?
The Inreach system works very well....sometimes it takes up to 10 min to get a message out or in. You can pare it to your smart phone and use the phone keypad to send a text as texting on the Inreach is VERY slow.
Tom

One thing that Amateur Radio gives you that InReach cannot, Amateur Radio gets you a bunch of old fat guys, with antennas all over their vehicles and homes, who listen to the local repeaters and simplex frequencies all the time. I have found Hams very willing to help, even if it isn't an emergency. This can be useful wherever you go in that you have local people that can assist if needed.
For me it's easier to use a two way radio while doing something active like riding a mountain bike or hiking. Often, I don't have to stop to talk on the radio and of course you can always listen. Texting on the other hand, I have to stop. Also, the ability of an amateur radio handheld to receive local Forest Service, Law Enforcement, Search and Rescue and/or other public service frequencies could be helpful as well.
The cheap Chinese radios are hit and miss and Amazon has too many fake reviews anymore to be reliable.
I recommend eHam.net for amateur radio equipment reviews.
For handheld reviews - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/49
For mobile VHF/UHF reviews - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/38
And don't forget antennas - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/37
The Yaesu FT-70DR looks decent. I would even consider the lower cost FT-60 as I don't think the C4FM digital mode will help in your case. I still think a mobile set up as a base at the house, with a good antenna, will work best. If it was a dual-band with cross-band repeat would be even better. For simplex work the 2 meter band should work better than 70cm. I've had one of these antennas http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1054 up on the roof for years and it works great.
Of course if you both have radios you can always go up in the plane and fly over the area and talk directly too.

My 2 cents!

Not to stir the pot or anything, but...

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4185 ... r-network/

lesuther wrote:Not to stir the pot or anything, but...

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4185 ... r-network/

That's pretty cool.

topgun260 wrote:One thing that Amateur Radio gives you that InReach cannot, Amateur Radio gets you a bunch of old fat guys, with antennas all over their vehicles and homes, who listen to the local repeaters and simplex frequencies all the time. I have found Hams very willing to help, even if it isn't an emergency. This can be useful wherever you go in that you have local people that can assist if needed.
For me it's easier to use a two way radio while doing something active like riding a mountain bike or hiking. Often, I don't have to stop to talk on the radio and of course you can always listen. Texting on the other hand, I have to stop. Also, the ability of an amateur radio handheld to receive local Forest Service, Law Enforcement, Search and Rescue and/or other public service frequencies could be helpful as well.
The cheap Chinese radios are hit and miss and Amazon has too many fake reviews anymore to be reliable.
I recommend eHam.net for amateur radio equipment reviews.
For handheld reviews - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/49
For mobile VHF/UHF reviews - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/38
And don't forget antennas - http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/37
The Yaesu FT-70DR looks decent. I would even consider the lower cost FT-60 as I don't think the C4FM digital mode will help in your case. I still think a mobile set up as a base at the house, with a good antenna, will work best. If it was a dual-band with cross-band repeat would be even better. For simplex work the 2 meter band should work better than 70cm. I've had one of these antennas http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1054 up on the roof for years and it works great.
Of course if you both have radios you can always go up in the plane and fly over the area and talk directly too.

My 2 cents!

If I'm in the Bob what repeaters can I hit?

[/quote]If I'm in the Bob what repeaters can I hit?[/quote]

Not sure about hitting them due to conditions and terrain, but here's a quick shotgun search of amateur repeaters listed for Montana. No guarantees as to them up and running when needed.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/ ... and6=&loc=%&call=%&status_id=%&features=&use=%

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/ ... id=30&loc=%&call=%&use=%

http://www.fvarc.org/?q=Repeaters

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?stid=30&tab=ham

Gary NL7Y

asa wrote:

lesuther wrote:Not to stir the pot or anything, but...

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4185 ... r-network/

That's pretty cool.

I agree. If you’re looking to build a radio network then I’d personally look into this - you already own two radios that are likely compatible.