This is an old topic, but seems to fit. I just watched all three seasons of "Flying Wild Alaska" and noticed that all cross wind landings are done by crabbing, then straitening out as the first main (up wind) is touching down. Tail wheel or trike, that was what I saw every time. How come nobody used the slip approach?

One reason I can think of is that with such high winds, a slip would put the upwind wing very close to the runway, making a strike more likely.

tom


ps. Those guys on FWA operated in some awful stuff. My hat is off to the folks on this forum that are doing, or did the same. Me? I'm a fair-weather flyer.

It's easy, and a stable ride to just hold the crab in on final, and then when you're ready to touch, straighten out and dab the wheel onto the ground. That way your wheel is getting traction on the ground, and there's less likelihood of drifting sideways. You can handle way heavier winds that way, as you won't run out of rudder if you can get stopped quick enough.

Of course, it's a different story if your landing surface is slick.

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Gump

I've always read that it's more comfortable for pax.

I think the crab technique is way easier and allows you to handle more crosswind. When I was a low time pilot, I never got comfortable (or very good) at the wing low cross control method, so once I got my license I sort of figured out the crabbing method on my own. It was like a light switched on and my former fear and dread of crosswinds went away. Once I figured out the crabbing technique, wind ceased to be a limiting factor operationally, although it must be said that all my flying in really high winds was in tricycle gear aircraft.

Best,
O-2

Crabbing is definitely my preference in the trikes - because it's no problem if your not quite straight when the mains touch, everything sorts itself out.
Tailwheels on the other hand, (I have low time but) I understand if your direction of travel and the direction your wheels are pointing aren't the same when you touch down, you need to be prepared for some swerving. So I fly wing-low in a tailwheel, to make sure I'm lined up well before I get to there. Probably something I need to "grow" out of...

I've always used the slip, but I'll have to play with crabbing. My plane has such low wing loading that it bounces around like crazy if the wind is not steady. Makes it impossible to hold it steady on final. Being a trike, it's pretty forgiving of some ugliness on my part. Also, I've found that once the plane is in ground effect, most of the turbulence seems to go away.

thanks for your thoughts,

tom

On the 701 I used the crab on final to get the sense of direction and crosswind strength and if it was gusty then changed to the wing low slip before for landing. The Tundra is much heavier and stable in its approach so it has always worked so far to use the wing low slip. I will touch the upwind wheel down then settle into a wheel landing which helps with alignment. Rarely do I use a three point landing.

The stronger the crosswind, the less likely I am to do a wheel landing. I like the tailwheel on the ground supplementing the rudder. My direct crosswind limit in a J3 is 27 kts, gusting 33 on grass. Above 25 kts direct crosswind, you have to accept that the windward main and the tailwheel will be scrubbing sideways. Due to either caution or a lack of skill (I don't know which), I don't like to let the windward wingtip get much closer than a foot off the ground.

One thing to remember is that on a lot of more uncontrolled/remote fields they are pretty forgiving about landing on taxiways in strong cross winds, sometimes they even suggest it airport/facilities directory as at Lakeview for example in the airport remarks section above:

"Twy NE-SW used for strong cross wind ldg."

Even if not the local custom, sometimes it's better to ask forgivness than permission.

+1

One thing occurs to me at the point of changing between letting the plane crab into the wind to then switching to wing low slip. During the crab the plane is flying streamlined as possible with less drag like it does in crosswind cruise, it's cleaner and makes the most lift to drag. When entering ground effect we know the wing will gain some extra lift as it compresses air between it and the ground causing some float. Changing to a slip makes the plane less streamlined and should destroy lift similar to a normal slip to landing which then increases rate of descent. It makes sense that switching to wing low slip eliminates some of the extra lift caused by ground effect and the cross controlling makes the plane dirtier, increasing sink and shortening the float. In a gusting wind that has a headwind component to it, it would also make sense that being in a slip should reduce the lift generated by the oncoming gust itself compared to the nose being into the wind in the crab.

After all that I have a question. In gusting wind is there an advantage to making the change to wing low from the crab ahead of entering the ground effect or is there no real best point at which to make the switch?

When I was getting real airplane cross wind instruction (I'd already been flying 2 axis control hang gliders and ultralights for years) by a friend in his J-3, I'll never forget how he explained his take on x-winds. "Just setup on final a little further out then normal, to give yourself plenty of time to figure out what combination of rudder and aerilon you need to make the plane track down the centerline". That was it, or all I remember and have ever used. I just kinda autopilot it in, doing what the airplane is telling me it wants.

And if I can't make that work, or even if it gets a little uncomfortable, I just land sideways or on an angle, on the runway, or a taxiway or where ever. Once I'm safely down and my plane is undamaged, I can discuss it all with the tower guys or whomever. I never forget that it is going to be ME who will be fixing any damage, not them, so I'll do what it takes, that white line down the center of a paved strip is just a suggestion, like the line on the side of the interstate lane, I'll use the shoulder if I can avoid a wreck.

When I took my checkride in Anchorage in February 1973, there was maybe a 5 knot wind splitting the runways at Merrill. Each and every landing I did was a crummy example of failing to compensate for that little bitty wind. When I told my DE that I was returning to Laramie when I left the USAF, he said that very early on I better learn how to handle crosswinds. So within days of returning to Laramie, I was hooked up with an instructor as I started my commercial training, and I confessed my lack of crosswind skills.

On a Sunday, he called and told me that it was a good day to learn crosswinds--winds straight down 21 at 25G30. How would that teach me crosswinds? We'll use 12/30. To make a long story short, after about a dozen landings both directions in the 172, I had learned crosswinds. His technique, which I later taught, was to hold the crab into the wind until just before the roundout, then lower the wing and apply the rudder to align with the runway, to set down the upwind main, no flaps.

The most direct crosswind I've landed in with a 172 or 182 has been 30 knots. The most actual wind I've landed in has been about 45-50 knots, at Casper on an Angel Flight a few years ago in my P172D, which equated to about a 22-25 knot crosswind. The most actual wind I've taken off in was 55-60 knots at Riverton many years ago in a 172, using wing-walkers to get out to the runway--almost no forward rolling before levitating.

To answer the question of when to transition from crab to wing low, I prefer getting into ground effect on the transition, because winds that close to the ground are often significantly less than just a few feet farther in elevation. Transitioning too soon doesn't give you much of an idea how strong the winds are at the surface, and it's very definitely more uncomfortable for passengers in the wing low/slip configuration.

Cary

Landed "Charlie" on a strip near upper White River and could stand on one brake and slide the tire but not swing the tail more than a few degrees off line, I had to shut down, change my shorts, push the tail around and the carefully taxi back over the hill out of the wind. A few minutes later a 206 from forty mile air came in, plopped down, unloaded some guys from Mexico City to hunt sheep, then took off with about three lengths of ground roll. He never even attempted to turn.

I too use a combination of slip and crab to just do whatever is needed to track my line.

shorton wrote:Landed "Charlie" on a strip near upper White River and could stand on one brake and slide the tire but not swing the tail more than a few degrees off line, I had to shut down, change my shorts, push the tail around and the carefully taxi back over the hill out of the wind. A few minutes later a 206 from forty mile air came in, plopped down, unloaded some guys from Mexico City to hunt sheep, then took off with about three lengths of ground roll. He never even attempted to turn.

I too use a combination of slip and crab to just do whatever is needed to track my line.

Was this Horsfeld, Ptarmigan, or somewhere else up there on the upper White? Seems that there is always x-wind on Horsfeld and with that narrow strip (30' ?? if that much) there is no room for error. A couple of 206's crashed up there a few years ago -- very experienced pilots, too.

Hey Nizina you want me to give away my secret spot? Yes you are right, I was going into horsefeld and Baultoff strip. I forget which is which but one is on a fairly big flat area in an open valley and the other is right along the stream, very narrow with lots of brush a few miles northeast.

The one I was referring to is the one in the open valley with the approach right over two small connected lakes and there is an outfitter who works out of there with a nice cabin. They were kind to feed us coffee and cookies while we waited for the wind to let up so we could get into the other strip. My dad says it's a good thing we did not shoot the Ram we watched for 30 minutes as we were cutting brush jinking down the creek bed when we took off and another few pounds of sheep would have meant a bad day for us.

Really a nice area but I haven't been back there in many years.

I was just looking at google earth and it don't look quite right to me and I don't have a chart here in the house but that's where I was at.

="shorton"
The one I was referring to is the one in the open valley with the approach right over two small connected lakes and there is an outfitter who works out of there with a nice cabin. They were kind to feed us coffee and cookies while we waited for the wind to let up so we could get into the other strip. My dad says it's a good thing we did not shoot the Ram we watched for 30 minutes as we were cutting brush jinking down the creek bed when we took off and another few pounds of sheep would have meant a bad day for us.

Really a nice area but I haven't been back there in many years.

Shorton

You sound like a sheep hunter. Me too, but my knees don't cooperate as much on hard hunts any more. And I don't let on to my best spots either. I've never hunted sheep in the Horsfeld area, but it is certainly sheep country-- along with bear and moose.

Sounds like you did lay over at the Horsfeld strip. Relatively short, very narrow, and always with a cross wind. The outfitter that you described is Wrangell Outfitters (http://www.wrangelloutfitters.com), but it is probably not the same outfitter that was there when you laid over. The new guy is every bit as hospitable -- good people. I had moose ribs last time was there. One of my neighbors kids is a wrangler there in the summer time. Frankly I'd rather not fly into the Horsfeld unless conditions are just right (which is rare). However, same can be said of the Baultiff strip which is generally long enough, but narrow and windy.

Drop in some time if your are in the neighborhood -- nine miles south of McCarthy and generally with no only light cross winds.

Nizina

dirtstrip wrote:After all that I have a question. In gusting wind is there an advantage to making the change to wing low from the crab ahead of entering the ground effect or is there no real best point at which to make the switch?

Personally I wait until in ground effect before transitioning from crab to slip. That goes for nose wheel or tail-dragger. The winds close to the ground tend to be less compared to on the approach, so I find it easier to control things when in ground effect. Of course if it's a very short strip I'm going for then some times you just have to get 'er down and to hell with the greaser. But always, always straight! Landing with any sideways movement in a tail dragger is asking for an battle during the rollout.

I just leave the plane in a slip and don't transition out of it.
In a J3 on grass in direct crosswinds over 25 kts, you have to accept that the plane will be scrubbing sideways to some extent.

A technique that can be useful with most single engine airplanes for extremely strong crosswinds is to reorient an apparent center line into the wind as much as possible. In the desert and mountains, high diurnal rates and high density altitude result in extremely strong crosswinds in the afternoon. Pilots often find themselves at a single runway airport far from the nearest other runway direction airport with fuel. I've seen several multiple go around situations because insufficient rudder was available to go down the center of the runway or landing zone. Lee side venturi often causes greater intensity of crosswind at different locations on the field. These situations occasionally resulted in bent airplanes.

When we bank into the crosswind and find that we have insufficient rudder to hold the center line, we can simply drift downwind until the downwind corner of the runway lines up with the upwind big airplane touchdown zone white square one thousand feet down the runway. This new one thousand feet runway, oriented more into the wind, will usually allow enough opposite rudder (on the stop if necessary) to maintain this new apparent center line. One thousand feet is enough for most singles in a strong crosswind which is now more of a headwind. Full flaps and dynamic throttle to control the up and downs from gusts spread help a lot. Using power/pitch to land on the numbers (or exact down wind corner) is also very helpful. With faster singles, we can turn down the upwind side of the runway at the big airplane touchdown zone marking.