Isn't there a saying that goes something like, "The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on the ground and on fire"?

i am packing 45 gal max when i go in...even with the edm running, i dip the tanks all the time to be sure...i've lightened up my 182T as much as possible, and 40-45 gals works to get me in and out. BTW, Pete in Challis has a new self-serve set-up and about 5/gal...good price compared to IDA or MYL...

It takes a lot of work to plan fuel required for the flight. Monitor the flight and adjust power or altitude as necessarily to ensure enough fuel reserves on landing. Topping the tanks and landing with half tanks all the time is easy flying. With my airplanes thats like flying around with a big 240 passenger all the time. Just 10 extra gallons is 60lbs. I have the pilots carry a 50 lb bag from the shop to the airplane and back to prove my point.

Scouter wrote:Once you fly with a JPI FS-450 fuel scan, you will wonder how you flew with out one. Amazingly accurate, a real tool when wired into a gps

jim

I have to agree with this one, I have a JPI 711, with the fuel flow linked to my 496, I had no idea how much I would use it and how valuable a tool it would be. Here is an example, returning home from JC, I encountered 50 mph head winds, I planned on landing at an airport along the way for fuel , the ATIS gave ground winds of 26 gusting 38 or there about, the fuel flow meter and 496 calculated that I would still have 4.1 GAL if I flew straight to my home airport, I normally land with 10-16 gal res. this was really stretching it but it was better than getting blown off the runway at my scheduled fuel stop, without the fuel flow I would never have taken the chance and would have been forced to land in less than favorable conditions. The JPI 711 linked to a GPS is a wonderful tool.

Fuel and weather tend to be related. I flight plan to a 30 min reserve, but in the backcountry there isn't a lot of weather reports. Cut it tight once and enroute gambled that tha ATIS from a 30 mile away airport was good. Shallow fog bank over my destination, and now real tight to any alternate (4 gal), a couple of passes and I landed with 3 gal. More fuel, less weather problems. Better weather, less fuel.

I had friends that would cut it down to min. left of fuel. They are no longer around. I burn 9 to 10 gal. a hour.
I top off each tank befor a flight. My plane holds 50 gal. of fuel. Most of my flights are around 3 to 4 hours.
Its better to have it and not need it then to neeed it and not have it. People who fly with minamum fuel will
soon get in to truble.

Fly safe.

Ken in Alaska

I typically plan for an hour reserve and get nervous when the guages drop below 1/4 tanks. On the other hand, working short or soft, tight strips weight is important and less fuel can mean safety. I know I want a fuel monitor and would feel better when trying to fly light.

172heavy wrote:

Scouter wrote:Once you fly with a JPI FS-450 fuel scan, you will wonder how you flew with out one. Amazingly accurate, a real tool when wired into a gps

jim

I have to agree with this one, I have a JPI 711, with the fuel flow linked to my 496, I had no idea how much I would use it and how valuable a tool it would be. Here is an example, returning home from JC, I encountered 50 mph head winds, I planned on landing at an airport along the way for fuel , the ATIS gave ground winds of 26 gusting 38 or there about, the fuel flow meter and 496 calculated that I would still have 4.1 GAL if I flew straight to my home airport, I normally land with 10-16 gal res. this was really stretching it but it was better than getting blown off the runway at my scheduled fuel stop, without the fuel flow I would never have taken the chance and would have been forced to land in less than favorable conditions. The JPI 711 linked to a GPS is a wonderful tool.

Joe be careful with that, I too love my JPI 450 and it's linked to my GPS and is very accurate. I fueled at Limon Co. coming back from Michigan July 9th and made the mistake of leaving my left fuel cap off After my climbing left turn I smelled a very faint odor of gas which is almost normal in my plane. I looked at my gauges and noticed the left one bouncing and it shouldn't be doing that cause I just topped off. Looking over my shoulder at the trailing edge of my flap you could see the fuel streaming, I returned and landed, located my cap and refueled. In a matter of about 6 minutes from take off to landing I lost 11.5 gallons of fuel

At that rate it would only have taken 30 minutes to exhaust all the fuel, like the previous poster said, the only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire. I don't trust my gauges totally but they help tell the fuel state. I like to land with no less than 1 hour fuel on.

I too have a JPI but I just cannot get myself to trust it. I go by my watch. The JPI supports what my watch is telling me. Running out is NOT an option. as Gump said, I would rather have to much than need it later. At 6lbs per gallon, I am good with the extra weight. I guess that why I am always trying to shave weight elsewhere.

I must admit however, when staying close to hm I often cut it far to close and always tell myself to not do that again. Funny (not really) how I keep telling myself that. Often going to land somewhere real high and wanting to be a light as possible, then sweating it all the way to the pump. I continuously need to remind myself that the landing was just not worth the stress I put on myself for the lack of fuel. Deffinelty something I need to work on. Betting there are a lot of folks on here that do the same... Lets not let it catch up to us. This thread is a good reminder for certain.

AKT

Glidergeek wrote:

172heavy wrote:

Scouter wrote:Once you fly with a JPI FS-450 fuel scan, you will wonder how you flew with out one. Amazingly accurate, a real tool when wired into a gps

jim

I have to agree with this one, I have a JPI 711, with the fuel flow linked to my 496, I had no idea how much I would use it and how valuable a tool it would be. Here is an example, returning home from JC, I encountered 50 mph head winds, I planned on landing at an airport along the way for fuel , the ATIS gave ground winds of 26 gusting 38 or there about, the fuel flow meter and 496 calculated that I would still have 4.1 GAL if I flew straight to my home airport, I normally land with 10-16 gal res. this was really stretching it but it was better than getting blown off the runway at my scheduled fuel stop, without the fuel flow I would never have taken the chance and would have been forced to land in less than favorable conditions. The JPI 711 linked to a GPS is a wonderful tool.

Joe be careful with that, I too love my JPI 450 and it's linked to my GPS and is very accurate. I fueled at Limon Co. coming back from Michigan July 9th and made the mistake of leaving my left fuel cap off After my climbing left turn I smelled a very faint odor of gas which is almost normal in my plane. I looked at my gauges and noticed the left one bouncing and it shouldn't be doing that cause I just topped off. Looking over my shoulder at the trailing edge of my flap you could see the fuel streaming, I returned and landed, located my cap and refueled. In a matter of about 6 minutes from take off to landing I lost 11.5 gallons of fuel

At that rate it would only have taken 30 minutes to exhaust all the fuel, like the previous poster said, the only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire. I don't trust my gauges totally but they help tell the fuel state. I like to land with no less than 1 hour fuel on.

Thanks for the concern, I rarely depend on it as I did that day, I normally land with 10-16 gal res. I check its accuracy on every fill up, it’s a rare event when it’s off by as much as a gallon, 98% of the time it’s within 4/10 of a gallon on a fill up, and about 50% it’s as close as 2/10 or on the money. As for fuel leaks, then all bets are off, only fuel smell or a radical gauge indication will reflect a problem like that. And yes I have left a gas cap loose or off, beat the shit out of the paint on top of the wing, it took me a minute to figure out what the banging was, could have been much worse if the cap was not on a chain.

aktahoe1 wrote:I too have a JPI but I just cannot get myself to trust it. I go by my watch. The JPI supports what my watch is telling me. Running out is NOT an option. as Gump said, I would rather have to much than need it later. At 6lbs per gallon, I am good with the extra weight. I guess that why I am always trying to shave weight elsewhere.

I must admit however, when staying close to hm I often cut it far to close and always tell myself to not do that again. Funny (not really) how I keep telling myself that. Often going to land somewhere real high and wanting to be a light as possible, then sweating it all the way to the pump. I continuously need to remind myself that the landing was just not worth the stress I put on myself for the lack of fuel. Deffinelty something I need to work on. Betting there are a lot of folks on here that do the same... Lets not let it catch up to us. This thread is a good reminder for certain.

AKT

My motto with the JPI: "Trust, but verify"

My motto with the JPI: "Trust, but verify"

X2

aktahoe1 wrote:I too have a JPI but I just cannot get myself to trust it. I go by my watch. The JPI supports what my watch is telling me. Running out is NOT an option. as Gump said, I would rather have to much than need it later. At 6lbs per gallon, I am good with the extra weight. I guess that why I am always trying to shave weight elsewhere.

I must admit however, when staying close to hm I often cut it far to close and always tell myself to not do that again. Funny (not really) how I keep telling myself that. Often going to land somewhere real high and wanting to be a light as possible, then sweating it all the way to the pump. I continuously need to remind myself that the landing was just not worth the stress I put on myself for the lack of fuel. Deffinelty something I need to work on. Betting there are a lot of folks on here that do the same... Lets not let it catch up to us. This thread is a good reminder for certain.

AKT

Here's an idea for you Kevin, if you want to go into a high spot as light as possible get a couple akbw gas bags and stash them at a nearby spot where you aren't worried about having the extra weight. After you bag the high altitude landing you can throw those extra 10 gallons in and not be sweating on the way back to the pumps.

Glidergeek wrote:My motto with the JPI: "Trust, but verify"

X2

And that motto applies in many other of life's scenarios.

Depends on the mission...

Like Gump I tend to be a chicken shit with gas.... Having said that, at home where the typical ferry is under five minutes, and alternate strips are within 15 minutes, it's very easy to get comfortable with a reserve that might dip into the legal limits ... On the other hand flying long distances over no-mans land routinely finds me in situations where carrying only 'legal minimums' isn't going to help a whole lot....

As to what instrument to trust, I say knowing the machine is far more important than knowing how to read time.

Just this season, a bonehead flying a friends AT-502 got turned around and couldn't find his way back to the strip. Having kept track of time he 'knew' he was low on fuel and chose to land on some crp land, rather than flame out... Although there were several mistakes up to this point, and several better options he could have chose, (landing on crp led to ground loop, and tore up airplane) the one thing that stood out in my mind was that after all the dust settled and the wings came off to move the airplane, there was 50 gallons of fuel left on board, or a full hour! This discrepancy was simply a result of the pilot assuming a fuel burn in the mid fifties, (which is where it ran all season with the last pilot) but actually running a power setting that yielded something around 42 gph...

Point is (and this is mostly geared towards the bigger engined crowds) when you punch your timer and start counting down, are you assuming the 12gph cruise burn, or the 28gph take off burn? Are you varying power, or playing 'set and forget?' all this will impact your actual gph, and just using an 'average' is sooner or later going to bite you...

Time fuel? I do, but I don't rely on my watch any more than I rely on my JPI. Know everything you have, and use everything you can...

Take care, Rob

I give myself an hour reserve no matter the mission. I'm a chicken too.

"Point is (and this is mostly geared towards the bigger engined crowds) when you punch your timer and start counting down, are you assuming the 12gph cruise burn, or the 28gph take off burn? Are you varying power, or playing 'set and forget?' all this will impact your actual gph, and just using an 'average' is sooner or later going to bite you..."

I top off and watch my bean counter (JPI 450) and my fuel gauges and stay conserative. I really think out my flight plan and have several refueling options in mind. In power I make landing an option, in my glider every landing is a forced landing.

In my 180 w/Jpi I would check what the Jpi was saying when the gauges were saying 1/2 fuel. If they agreed, than I knew all was good.
Gary

I really like the tapered (I can use EVERY drop) header tank, with its sight gauge that my wing tanks drain into on my homebuilt. So simple and reliable, I, like most of you, get a bit ansty at an hour remaining or so, even with the vast number of landable areas with my low stall and big tires, but the header system allows me to cut it pretty fine. I've landed a few times with a bit less then 2 gallons, but that was still legal (45 min. throttled back for my bird) and I was over familiar country, and most importantly I knew to the fraction of a pint exactly how much fuel I really had. If I ever run out of fuel somebody kick my ass, I'd really have NO excuse!

courierguy wrote:I really like the tapered (I can use EVERY drop) header tank, with its sight gauge that my wing tanks drain into on my homebuilt. So simple and reliable, I, like most of you, get a bit ansty at an hour remaining or so, even with the vast number of landable areas with my low stall and big tires, but the header system allows me to cut it pretty fine. I've landed a few times with a bit less then 2 gallons, but that was still legal (45 min. throttled back for my bird) and I was over familiar country, and most importantly I knew to the fraction of a pint exactly how much fuel I really had. If I ever run out of fuel somebody kick my ass, I'd really have NO excuse!

DITTO CG....if I run out of gas I have no one to blame but ME!
I have purposely run the plane very low on gas over the airport to compare time/fuel quantity gauges so if the plane quits I knew I could land. Gave me a better feeling how to trust my burn/time in the air/ gauge indication. I like others don't like to see the gauges under 1/4 tank. I can easily fly 4 hours in cruise but normally I have a 3 hour ass. Also if I even think I might get close I throttle back and lean for best fuel economy. I normally use 8.9 gal/hr, I can lean it back to 4.5 gal/hr. Yes I loose airspeed, BUT the plane will do better MPG.
HC