There has to be a way but I don’t know. Can you file from a gps waypoint as your initial point? Thanks in advance for the knowledge

In Canada if you can depart from a location that’s in uncontrolled airspace and then pick up an IFR clearance to enter controlled airspace once you are airborne.

The best way is to call the facility that will be giving you the clearance and ask. In the US, a supervisor will answer the phone when you call and they actually like to assist pilots. The harder part is getting the phone number direct into the radar room.

Ah ok. Thanks. Maybe different depending on the area. In the lower 48 there isn’t that much uncontrolled above 1200’. I would assume there are guys departing backcountry strips or off airport that need to get a clearance but don’t always want to ask for a pop up because of the unnecessary workload if you could file in the ground.

A simple way is start the flight plan at an intersection close by.

With how many GPS waypoints there are, go into foreflight and hold you finger on where you want to pick up IFR, there are probably a few waypoints within a couple miles

Put that into origin, then put your destination in, I’d also probably put in a comment, like departing Lake Bob, picking up IFR at JOBOB waypoint


Like this

Could you legally get to that waypoint and a vectoring altitude in the clouds if it was controlled airspace? I guess they would give you a void time and provide a period of separation around that waypoint.

I have yet to take off IFR from a lake or strip, always picked it up in the air

Personal policy for me, IFR, I won’t launch unless I can get back in, be it visual or via IAP, especially when there isn’t another close place I could get into, seeing there is no approach to most lakes or most backcountry strips, I’m not sure I’d launch IFR from the backcountry, but that’s just my personal risk matrix

Maybe if you could provide your own terrain clearance, find the closest airport with a clearance delivery phone number and call and ask

Update us, I’d be interested too

If there are no waypoints that work, it also will take a radial DME

Find the closest VOR, and go direct to from your current location (if you’re on the strip) easy to get radial DME from that

Input the format into FF as VOR/Radial/DME

ABC/270/10

ABC VOR
270 Radial
10nm

NineThreeKilo wrote:I have yet to take off IFR from a lake or strip, always picked it up in the air

Personal policy for me, IFR, I won’t launch unless I can get back in, be it visual or via IAP, especially when there isn’t another close place I could get into, seeing there is no approach to most lakes or most backcountry strips, I’m not sure I’d launch IFR from the backcountry, but that’s just my personal risk matrix

Maybe if you could provide your own terrain clearance, find the closest airport with a clearance delivery phone number and call and ask

Update us, I’d be interested too

I'm siding with 93K on this one if the weather is that bad, stay put and have another "adult" beverage. I'll go to work if I want to fly in bad weather or go fast and get paid for it, the back country is all about LAR flying not PFM.

I used to do this occasionally. I was based at a charted grass strip in an area of flat terrain. But I don't think ATC cares whether the strip is charted or not. All they care about is whether it has an approach (and therefore has been assessed for departure).

At the airport I used (1AR9), Class E starts at 700 AGL. Let's say the ceiling is 800 Overcast and the vis is 5 miles. With that weather I could get back to where I departed from until I went IMC, at which point there was another airport 15 miles away (4M3) that had approaches.

Here's how I'd do it. File out of the grass strip, call ATC on the national clearance delivery number or the local approach control, and get cleared for departure with a void time. ATC would also tell me to enter controlled airspace on a specific heading. Of course it was on me for terrain and obstruction clearance until reaching the MVA.

Of course I could have just departed VFR and run around at 600 AGL until I got the clearance. But there's no guarantee that ATC can accept you when you pop up like that... I'd rather wait on the ground. This sometimes happened... ATC told me more than once to call back in 10 minutes.

I've done this in reverse too. Shoot the approach to a nearby airport, get into VMC in Class G, cancel IFR, and scud run over to the place I want to go.

In my mind this falls into the same risk category as Special VFR or contact approaches. I need to be familiar with the area, it must be daylight, the weather has to be reasonably good and I need to know that it meets my personal minima, and so on.

Pretty common in Canada. Out of controlled airspace you'd switch to a common frequency and negotiate separation directly with (any) other traffic. Descend to the sector altitude and have a look, or do your "company" approach. Same to get out, broadcast, take care of your own traffic and terrain separation, get a clearance from ATC before entering controlled airspace.

Near civilization, pretty much as slowmover describes. Call ATC by phone and get a time slot at fix or location, you're on your own until you get there, airborne call ATC on the radio and get the rest of your clearance. We'd depart in near 0/0, there was no going back.

Normal ops for bush/medvac operations.

Karmutzen wrote:Pretty common in Canada. Out of controlled airspace you'd switch to a common frequency and negotiate separation directly with (any) other traffic. Descend to the sector altitude and have a look, or do your "company" approach. Same to get out, broadcast, take care of your own traffic and terrain separation, get a clearance from ATC before entering controlled airspace.

Near civilization, pretty much as slowmover describes. Call ATC by phone and get a time slot at fix or location, you're on your own until you get there, airborne call ATC on the radio and get the rest of your clearance. We'd depart in near 0/0, there was no going back.

Normal ops for bush/medvac operations.

Flew for probably the largest medevac company on earth, that wouldn’t fly with them


Safe
Legal
Prudent

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Karmutzen wrote:Pretty common in Canada. Out of controlled airspace you'd switch to a common frequency and negotiate separation directly with (any) other traffic. Descend to the sector altitude and have a look, or do your "company" approach. Same to get out, broadcast, take care of your own traffic and terrain separation, get a clearance from ATC before entering controlled airspace.

Near civilization, pretty much as slowmover describes. Call ATC by phone and get a time slot at fix or location, you're on your own until you get there, airborne call ATC on the radio and get the rest of your clearance. We'd depart in near 0/0, there was no going back.

Normal ops for bush/medvac operations.

Flew for probably the largest medevac company on earth, that wouldn’t fly with them


Safe
Legal
Prudent

Like Karmutzen I've flown plenty of medevac and even more time in "uncontrolled" airspace. The process Karmutzen has outline is "standard" ops, its fully legal and can be done very safely. Canada has many, many communities serviced by uncontrolled, no tower airports from which IFR departures are flown daily.

A specific company policy may prohibit a procedure, that doesn't make it unsafe they have just chosen their own process that's all.

Mapleflt wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Karmutzen wrote:Pretty common in Canada. Out of controlled airspace you'd switch to a common frequency and negotiate separation directly with (any) other traffic. Descend to the sector altitude and have a look, or do your "company" approach. Same to get out, broadcast, take care of your own traffic and terrain separation, get a clearance from ATC before entering controlled airspace.

Near civilization, pretty much as slowmover describes. Call ATC by phone and get a time slot at fix or location, you're on your own until you get there, airborne call ATC on the radio and get the rest of your clearance. We'd depart in near 0/0, there was no going back.

Normal ops for bush/medvac operations.

Flew for probably the largest medevac company on earth, that wouldn’t fly with them


Safe
Legal
Prudent

Like Karmutzen I've flown plenty of medevac and even more time in "uncontrolled" airspace. The process Karmutzen has outline is "standard" ops, its fully legal and can be done very safely. Canada has many, many communities serviced by uncontrolled, no tower airports from which IFR departures are flown daily.

A specific company policy may prohibit a procedure, that doesn't make it unsafe they have just chosen their own process that's all.

How can it be done safely?
if anything happens after you’re wheels up you can’t get back in, and if there isn’t another place near by you could get into, that could really suck

Sounds like you’re just rolling the dice on nothing going wrong after T/O

Even for towered pavement to towered pavement in a twin jet, if we go 135 with our lower than standard T/O mins we can’t launch if we can’t get back in, and even 91 going home, yeah in can push the throttles and go in 0/0 but to me the risks arnt worth it shy of a good take off alternate close by, but outside of the airport being in the bottom of a weather bowl, when it’s that bad you often don’t have a good take off alternate near by. Everyone’s got their own risk matrix


Someone once told me when I flew medevac, they were paying us well not for flying, but to known when not to fly

Neither Karmutzen or myself suggested departing in 0/0 conditions.

We are discussing departing from an uncontrolled airport or location in uncontrolled airspace and thereafter establishing yourself on an IFR clearance. It can be done, it can be done safely and it has been done many, many times.

Your welcome to set your own limits; within the published legal limits as you see fit, or as your employer has defined for you in their approved documentation.

Safe travels, cheers

Mapleflt wrote:Neither Karmutzen or myself suggested departing in 0/0 conditions.

We are discussing departing from an uncontrolled airport or location in uncontrolled airspace and thereafter establishing yourself on an IFR clearance. It can be done, it can be done safely and it has been done many, many times.

Your welcome to set your own limits; within the published legal limits as you see fit, or as your employer has defined for you in their approved documentation.

Safe travels, cheers

That’s kinda the question, and everyone is different, but you got 0/0 - CAVU

Curious what others, or their companies, view as an acceptable ceiling/viz for departing a backcountry type strip with the intent to end up on a IFR?

What do I consider acceptable... it depends. I won't fly IMC in a normally-aspirated single engine piston unless the cloud bases are above the terrain. There might be a scenario where I'd overfly some mountains in the east, but out west the elevations are just too high for me to fly IFR. So IFR into IMC out of some backcountry strip in Idaho -- forget it, for me in the airplane I fly. But in western Alaska, or out of some strip in the Mat-Su Valley north of Anchorage so I can get to town, maybe.

I'm on a strip right now in Arkansas at 260' MSL. It's a dry county; let's say I want to go to New Orleans for a sazerac and come back tomorrow when the weather is supposedly better. Eight hour drive vs. a 2:30 flight... hmmm. The ridge tops around here are about 800' MSL. Maybe not "backcountry" but if the ceiling is 1000 OVC, I can get to VMC on top, and the vis is good underneath I'd be comfortable departing into better weather and lowering terrain.

I haven't codified my mins for this exact scenario, but now I'd say that I consider this to be acceptable FOR ME:
-- No ice or convective activity
-- Day only (I don't ever fly night in piston singles)
-- Must be able to get on top or into VMC within 20-30 minutes (I don't do long IMC flights in piston singles)
-- I must be able to depart in VMC and return to the point of departure in VMC
-- Weather must be good enough for me to see and avoid any obstacles along my departure path
-- Once I get into IMC, I must be able to descend into VMC in the event of engine failure. 800-1000 AGL ceilings are about my comfort zone, although I have done less in flat terrain

In all of these scenarios, I'm choosing to depart IFR into IMC instead of scud running. Others might choose to fly VFR under the weather, but if it isn't good enough for that then it isn't good enough for me to depart IFR.

I hope this helps!

so departing out of a backcountry/not charter strip with intent to go IFR you’d want 800-1k ceilings

This makes sense to me in your described scenario