My hangar neighbor is completely replacing the instrument panel in his PA-22, and is looking for ideas. He's totally gutted his airplane panel of all instruments. He primarily uses the aircraft for VFR flight but like most of us, wants emergency instrument capability.

My suggestion, which totally disregards Piper originality of any type:

G5
E.I. CGR-30P to replace the old fuel gauges, oil pressure, oil temp, tach, voltmeter, ammeter, etc, and gain CHT and EGT.
Aero 660 panel mount with Airgizmo.
Trig compact radio and xpndr.
PS Engineering PMA3000 4-place intercom
USB charging ports
1 cig lighter port
Remote ELT switch.

Group switches for lights, other like functions.

With that much simplification, maybe move some breakers up to the main panel instead of on the lower section.

Map slot or box?

I'd be looking for a way to get the compass off the top of the glareshield or windshield. What options are there?

I'll write up some of my ideas later, but for now here's a pic of my current rev, it has a few of the features you mentioned. I'm in the process of designing and building a new panel for my 22/20.

kevbot wrote:I'll write up some of my ideas later, but for now here's a pic of my current rev, it has a few of the features you mentioned. I'm in the process of designing and building a new panel for my 22/20.

What software generated that?

If you have "certification" flexibility I suggest a serious look at the AV-30 that these guys offer, www.AeroVonics.com for digital flight instruments

akschu wrote:

kevbot wrote:I'll write up some of my ideas later, but for now here's a pic of my current rev, it has a few of the features you mentioned. I'm in the process of designing and building a new panel for my 22/20.

What software generated that?

Solidworks. I found the comm, transponder, phone, and ipad models on grabcad; got lucky that somebody else made those models for the products I already own. Then I made the rest from scratch. Another Pacer guy supplied me with his panel drawings, so I was able to double check my basic dimensions. All the instruments and doodads are block-placeholders with dimensions from documentation online. I'll probably model the wiring harness as well, so that it's easy to output all of the required materials, cut-to-length, and assemble on a bench. The panel will be cut with a waterjet, but I haven't decided on what type of finish to go with.

Z are you implying that you are using the G5 to replace airspeed and altimeter? Or are those in addition to what's here?

Also, I can't see why people go the CGR route over the EDM900 unless it's for the aesthetics of the fact that the CGR is round. But alas, that's for another thread.

I was considering a CGR-30P as well, but now I'm leaning towards doing the EI tach, oil temp/press, volt/amp, and oat/carb temp gauges. a G5.

Garmin GTR225
Garmin GTX345 IF I decide to do the ADS-B thing.
InterVOX 4 place intercom which I have and is excellent
Remote ELT switch which I have

The CGR-30P and all the other amazing boxes have more information than I need.

The Garmin or iPad decision has been the hardest, and I still don't know for sure what I'll do. Leaning iPad with an AirGizmos mount.

So, is his goal to invest more in his instrument panel than the value of the airplane?

I have an EI tach, it sucks. Maybe they have a newer version, but the ones with the tiny lcd display and lights around the perimeter are awful.

I too would prefer the EDM 900 over the CGR-30P, but there’s a substantial cost difference too. Either one is big bucks installed.

MTV

mtv wrote:...

I have an EI tach, it sucks. Maybe they have a newer version, but the ones with the tiny lcd display and lights around the perimeter are awful.

...

MTV

Interesting...I have that tach and I don't mind it at all. What don't you like about it?

akaviator wrote:...

The Garmin or iPad decision has been the hardest, and I still don't know for sure what I'll do. Leaning iPad with an AirGizmos mount.

I gotta say I don't understand the logic of incorporating something with a super-short useful life (such as an ipad) into a panel. Granted, you can remove the arigizmos mount down the road...but since it's a forgone conclusion that todays ipad is going to be outdated in five years, why make a hole in your panel to accommodate it? I'd be much more inclined to just use something like a ram-mount to hold the ipad externally, and save my panel for instruments that are going to last more than a few years.

But I'm sort of lazy, and I despise working under the panel, so maybe dealing with it down the road is a bigger deal to me than to others.

My current panel plan for my Maule is:

PS Engineering PAR200A (com, intercom, audio panel)
L3 Lynx NGT9000 transponder
Avidyne IFD440
IPad mini 4, maybe 5 (running the IFD100 app, probably ForeFlight also)
Two Aerovonics AV-30's
EI CGR-30C

I want to go with the CGR-30C so I can have more information displayed (like fuel in my four tanks) without cycling through screens, and I like the round format. Originally, I was planning to do the AV-30's, CGR, and keep my analog airspeed, altimeter, VSI and turn and bank, so round was a theme.

Hammer wrote:

mtv wrote:...

I have an EI tach, it sucks. Maybe they have a newer version, but the ones with the tiny lcd display and lights around the perimeter are awful.

...

MTV

Interesting...I have that tach and I don't mind it at all. What don't you like about it?

akaviator wrote:...

The Garmin or iPad decision has been the hardest, and I still don't know for sure what I'll do. Leaning iPad with an AirGizmos mount.

I gotta say I don't understand the logic of incorporating something with a super-short useful life (such as an ipad) into a panel. Granted, you can remove the arigizmos mount down the road...but since it's a forgone conclusion that todays ipad is going to be outdated in five years, why make a hole in your panel to accommodate it? I'd be much more inclined to just use something like a ram-mount to hold the ipad externally, and save my panel for instruments that are going to last more than a few years.

But I'm sort of lazy, and I despise working under the panel, so maybe dealing with it down the road is a bigger deal to me than to others.

I have the same feelings about a mount for a 660 or 796, Garmin isn't building the 796 anymore. The portable GPSs and the iPad all have the same short lifespan for a panel mount.

Mike doesn't like his tach, but yours is okay you say? Maybe different versions???

Nice thing is I haven't started on my panel yet, it's good to pick everybody's brains and experiences.

My tach sounds like the one Mike is referencing...still not sure what there is to dislike about it. I normally prefer dials...I have both digital and analog oil temperature gauges and almost never look at the digital numeric display, relying on the analog gauge...but the tach just doesn’t get scanned that often.

I like digital techs. I’ve had Horizon tachs in three or four airplanes, and loved them. The point is that the tiny little digits on the EI tach are hard to read for old eyes, and in the case of my current ride the tach is mounted low on the panel, a terrible location.

The other thing I despise is flashing lights in a cockpit. Flashing lights should be warning you of something, not just scrolling around the perimeter of a gauge, in my opinion. If a light flashes in a cockpit, I’m wired to figure it out, especially in cockpits with warning lights. So the EI tach is an unneeded distraction as well.

But, if the EI tach makes you happy, good for you. That design is one of the reasons I’ve never bought or installed an EI instrument. I’m glad to see they’re coming up with better, more viewable designs.

I’m trying to decide what to do about it, and coming up with megabuck stupid expensive answers.

MTV

Instead of the airgizmo and the huge hole in your panel, consider a surface mount - less commitment to soon out dated tech.

If you make a map box/slot, think about it fitting an iPad sized device for storage.
Routing device charge cables thru the box to avoid dangling dongles on your panel.

It is very easy to have a panel mount by taking a Ram mount apart and using the four small bolts to attach the cradle to the panel.

My EI tach only blinks at redline...a programmable value. A photovoltaic cell dims the led’s at night...very effectively in my experience.

Their customer support has also been excellent. I highly recommend them as a company.

I just did a G5, Aera 660/AirGizmo and GTR200 in my C120 and I'm very happy with it. Although needing a 4-place intercom kinda blows that idea up.

Earlier I said I'd do a writeup on my panel design & thoughts; this all started as a simple comm swap for my broken Narco 810 and ADS-B install... it has snowballed to a major degree. It should be noted that I haven't really trusted my vacuum-driven instruments for the last couple years based on how fast the DG precesses and how long (~10-15 min) my AI takes to level out. I haven't cut anything yet, I'm still in the design phase. I'm going to assemble as much as possible on the bench, so that the plane has minimal downtime.

I quickly realized how expensive this project could get if I didn't write out my requirements and nice-to-haves (goals).

My requirements are as follows:
1.A. Replace comm radio.
1.B. Add ADS-B Out capability.
1.C. Overhaul or replace the AI/DG.

My goals are as follows:
2.A. Vacuum system delete, go electronic.
2.B. Panel modularity for ease of work and future upgrades.
2.C. Reuse any avionics/instruments that I already have and are not broken to reduce cost.
2.D. Modernize the electric system interface & capability.

To satisfy Req,1.A, I bought an operable Icom A200 & tray at an excess part/old tools auction from my employer.
To satisfy Req,1.B. I got a Garmin GDL82 to piggyback off my current Garmin GTX327 transponder.
To satisfy Req,1.C. I could overhaul my vacuum instruments and be done with this whole project, but I that's too easy! Instead, to make my life more complicated I plan on purchasing a Garmin G5 and deleting the vacuum system entirely -- check off Goal,2.A.

Again I could stop here and make a shabby looking cover plate for the old DG, but I have never liked the panel in this plane.

The panel design is segmented into pilot-side w/ standard sixpack layout, center-stack, and copilot-side. Each segment will be front mounted via nutplates, so I can easily access the rear side of any avionics/instruments while sitting in the front seats rather than laying upside down under the panel (that sucks!) -- Goal,2.B. complete.

I'd love to add an EI CGR-30P, but at this time it's just not in the books. Staying true to Goal,2.C. I'm relocating my tach to the standard VSI location (G5 has integrated VSI) and my dual oil pressure/temp gauge to the standard DG location. In the future, I could put a digital engine monitor in the VSI location and add a second G5 (integrated HSI) or equiv in the DG location, this in addition to a IFR GPS/Nav/Comm would give me instrument-flight capability.

As others have mentioned about electronics and their useful lifespan, I plan on utilizing a RAM mount for an iPad Mini on the copilot side of the panel, directly next to the radio stack. I don't necessarily plan on mounting my phone (Galaxy S8) on the panel, but it was easy to add in CAD to check fitment, so that I have the future option for a standard smartphone to be RAM mounted on the pilot side upper left corner next to the six-pack. Concerning panel docked portable electronics, I did model my Garmin Aera 510 in an Air Gizmo, because I already have that in my stack and I like it (XM weather & radio). If I upgrade or want to change my radio stack in the future, that's easy because the Air Gizmo fits in the standard stack, so any other avionics or a simple rectangular block-off plate will drop in.

Goal,2.D. will arguably produce the most work definition out of any of my requirements/goals. Currently there is a small subpanel w/ 8 circuit breakers above the pilot's left knee, only the lights have switches (no power groups like an avionics master), and there is one cigarette lighter stlye power port. I will move my remote ELT switch beneath the txp and add a new panel-mount intercom (for years I've used a 4pl portable, temporarily attached beneath the panel). A new copilot-side CB subpanel will be mounted to the copilot segment, so I can access each group individually. It looks like I'll need 14 CBs, but it will be easy to add more if necessary.

Right now, I plan on adding 5 switches (shown under the iPad Mini).
1. ADS-B anonymous off/on
2. Accessory power group (cigarette lighter, panel mounted dual USB power ports) off/on
3. Auxiliary power group (USB power ports behind the panel: iPad Mini, Garmin Aera 510, Stratux ADS-B In) off/on
4. Avionics power group (Icom A200 Comm, Garmin GTX327/GDL82 Txp/ADS-B Out, Sigtronics SPA-4S Intercom) off/on
5. Instrument power group (Garmin G5, turn & bank, fuel level gauges) off/on

kevbot wrote:To satisfy Req,1.C. I could overhaul my vacuum instruments and be done with this whole project, but I that's too easy! Instead, to make my life more complicated I plan on purchasing a Garmin G5 and deleting the vacuum system entirely -- check off Goal,2.A.

I don't think it would take someone like yourself more than a few hours end to end to overhaul your gyros, plus about $150 of bearings and filters for all three instruments. It is really dead simple. If you want to be snazzy, you can screen your own cards to update the look. That part is easy and cheap as well, ut takes a bit of time and artistic notion. And you can buy nice little retrofit illuminated bezels to give them a new look for night flying. I did mine in my Pacer in high school- I saw a guy in a shop blasting through a pile of DG's with cleaner and bearings and touch up paint in under a half hour making $350-$450 each and decided to give it a whirl myself when the time came. After the job, they spun up by the time I got a clearance to taxi. Most of the issue was the filters in the back, by the way. I got a bag of those for $40 about 6 years ago on ebay.

lesuther wrote:

kevbot wrote:To satisfy Req,1.C. I could overhaul my vacuum instruments and be done with this whole project, but I that's too easy! Instead, to make my life more complicated I plan on purchasing a Garmin G5 and deleting the vacuum system entirely -- check off Goal,2.A.

I don't think it would take someone like yourself more than a few hours end to end to overhaul your gyros, plus about $150 of bearings and filters for all three instruments. It is really dead simple. If you want to be snazzy, you can screen your own cards to update the look. That part is easy and cheap as well, ut takes a bit of time and artistic notion. And you can buy nice little retrofit illuminated bezels to give them a new look for night flying. I did mine in my Pacer in high school- I saw a guy in a shop blasting through a pile of DG's with cleaner and bearings and touch up paint in under a half hour making $350-$450 each and decided to give it a whirl myself when the time came. After the job, they spun up by the time I got a clearance to taxi. Most of the issue was the filters in the back, by the way. I got a bag of those for $40 about 6 years ago on ebay.

I'm aware that overhauling my gyros would meet all of my requirements, and I actually hadn't thought of overhauling them myself. Thanks for that info! That said, I've been wanting to drop the vac system for years and now I have a good excuse to tear into the panel and make the changes I want. It would be a good learning experience to overhaul the gyros, but this whole panel rebuild is a fun exercise for me and I've never much enjoyed wiring, so this is also a good challenge to expand my systems knowledge. It would be fun to take apart one of the old gyros after removal...