Hey guys,

I'm looking at a Cessna powered by a 180hp Franklin. It was overhauled in 2014 and has flown 2 hours since then. The overhaul was done at Arlin's Aircraft Service in Bozeman, MT. I've heard he did good work, but I don't know how familiar he is with Franklins. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

What should I look for in an overhauled 335-b? I was told that it has the same camshaft as the 220hp o350, but that the cam lobes don't tend to have issues in the 180hp engine. How hard is it for a competent A&P to overhaul one of these correctly?

Separately, sitting for 6 years is usually not good for any engine. I talked to Airworx and was told that the cylinder sleeves can be changed inexpensively if they have corrosion. Is there anything else to look out for on a Franklin that has sat?

Thanks!

IMHO the lower end is usually more of a concern than the cylinders in an engine that's sat.
Franklins have a peek-a-boo cover plate on the top of the case that allows for a look-see.
That & the replaceable cylinder liners are two Franklin (or is it Franklyn?) features that seem like good ideas.

hotrod180 wrote:IMHO.

I'm not sure this means what you think it means.

Corrosion from sitting. Only 2 hours, does it still have the same oil in it that they used for the first flight? If so that is not good. Has the engine been preserved with a storage oil?

Parts availability may be an issue down the road, maybe not for the time you own the airplane but for the person who you try to sell t to it may be an issue. I would pass on this airplane unless you really know what you are doing and really know Franklins. It may be a great airplane but in my opinion it already has a couple strikes against it.

Just get an airplane that many of us have recommend to you on this website in various threads. There have been many years of combined experience on this thread from those who have given you excellent advice, many of us have “been there done that” and are trying to save you future grief.

Kurt

G44 wrote:Corrosion from sitting. Only 2 hours, does it still have the same oil in it that they used for the first flight? If so that is not good. Has the engine been preserved with a storage oil?

Parts availability may be an issue down the road, maybe not for the time you own the airplane but for the person who you try to sell t to it may be an issue. I would pass on this airplane unless you really know what you are doing and really know Franklins. It may be a great airplane but in my opinion it already has a couple strikes against it.

Just get an airplane that many of us have recommend to you on this website in various threads. There have been many years of combined experience on this thread from those who have given you excellent advice, many of us have “been there done that” and are trying to save you future grief.

Kurt

This right here ^^^^^ is the advice you should consider! Kurts last paragraph sums it up perfectly. The vast majority of the posters on here have many years of experience and are trying to help you the best we can. For another option, contact PilotRyan on this site and quiry him about the advice he was given in regards to his family's airplane as it was being rebuilt. I know you aren't rebuilding an aircraft, but the knowledge he was given during its rebuild might be an awakening experience that will help you in the future.The thread is on this forum.

G44 wrote:Corrosion from sitting. Only 2 hours, does it still have the same oil in it that they used for the first flight? If so that is not good. Has the engine been preserved with a storage oil?

Parts availability may be an issue down the road, maybe not for the time you own the airplane but for the person who you try to sell t to it may be an issue. I would pass on this airplane unless you really know what you are doing and really know Franklins. It may be a great airplane but in my opinion it already has a couple strikes against it.

Just get an airplane that many of us have recommend to you on this website in various threads. There have been many years of combined experience on this thread from those who have given you excellent advice, many of us have “been there done that” and are trying to save you future grief.

Kurt

Hey Kurt,

Thanks for the reply, as always.

I talked to one of the mechanics that maintains the aircraft on Friday, but the lead mechanic for the FBO wasn't in. I'll ask if the engine has been preserved when I speak with him tomorrow. It's been maintained by the shop in Montana that overhauled the engine (2014) since at least 2002. I'll ask him about airframe corrosion too. It's hardly been flown since 2008, but being based in dry country somewhat mitigates my concerns about corrosion. It was spruced up in 2017, but hasn't flown since. The nose wheel shock strut suggests that it's been kept serviceable despite sitting. I'll ask if he knows where the aircraft lived before he started working on it. If I'm comfortable with how that conversation goes, I think it may warrant a pre-buy inspection. I'm looking for A&Ps in the area that know both the 172 and the Franklin engine.

If I make an offer, it will be discounted by the cost of having an IRAN at Airworx ($6600), and having them install -C pistons that produce 200hp (another $600) while still having the ability to burn mogas. I personally am not terribly concerned about the parts availability of this engine. The 180hp o335 is essentially the same engine as on a Stinson 108-2 or -3, which was one of the recommended aircraft in that other thread you referenced. Having an essentially zero time, smooth, 200hp engine in an all-metal, four place aircraft for around $30k sounds pretty appealing if they accept the offer I'm willing to make.

The 172 seems to have some key advantages versus some of the other aircraft that have been discussed in the other thread. First, I don't live somewhere that has the kind of flying that would require a TD, and I'd happily take the savings in insurance as a low-time pilot with no TD time. Second, the list of available STCs seems much more extensive for the 172 than some of the other types. I can install a Landis fork, Sportsman STOL kit, etc. when I'm ready for the capabilities they offer. And finally it's a relatively low-maintenance all-metal aircraft with respectable cruise and stall speeds, that can live outdoors for the next 3 years. It has a high degree of parts availability, and tons of mechanics that are familiar with it.

Thanks again for the input,

Steve

Steve, I would rather have a 1200 hour been flown a lot in a short calendar time than that 2 SMOH engine. These engines really dont wear out, they rust out. 2 hours in 6 years with mineral oil that doesn’t do much for rust protection anyway is probably going to need to be torn down. If the engine was stored with a preventative oil and properly pickled it “may” be ok but probably not.

I offer this example... My dad bought the Widgeon that is in my avatar very cheap and all it needed was a good paint strip and clean up, 6 month job tops. How could you go wrong, in the end a good sound airplane with a great looking paint job for very little money? It’s a slam dunk, right? My dad was familiar with Widgeon’s and knew how to inspect them, he went thru this airplane pretty good before he bought it. Well as luck would have it, 8 years and $250,000 later it flew again. We had to replace a lot of metal that you could not see unless you removed other skins and rivets. Extensive ground up restoration. My dad did a lot of the labor himself and had a fantastic AI mechanic help him that charged an insanely low amount and it still cost $250,000 back between 1980 to 1988. He had more into it than it was worth. That being said, it was incredible after completion and when my dad was done with it I bought it from him in 2000. My dad still lost a lot of money on this airplane and did not give me a deal on it, I paid market price for it. I say this because my dad has been around airplanes all his life flying and working on them and even a guy like that can get something that needs a lot more work than anticipated. What I am trying to say, and for the last time, is listen to what many wise people on this site have said.

Concerning this low time SMOH 172 you are looking at, the odds any 2 SMOH engine, Franklin, Continental, Lycoming or otherwise in 6 years is going to need $ome $erious work! Move on to something else. Just trying to save you grief, not bust yer chops.
Kurt

G44 wrote:Steve, I would rather have a 1200 hour been flown a lot in a short calendar time than that 2 SMOH engine. These engines really dont wear out, they rust out. 2 hours in 6 years with mineral oil that doesn’t do much for rust protection anyway is probably going to need to be torn down. If the engine was stored with a preventative oil and properly pickled it “may” be ok but probably not.

I offer this example... My dad bought the Widgeon that is in my avatar very cheap and all it needed was a good paint strip and clean up, 6 month job tops. How could you go wrong, in the end a good sound airplane with a great looking paint job for very little money? It’s a slam dunk, right? My dad was familiar with Widgeon’s and knew how to inspect them, he went thru this airplane pretty good before he bought it. Well as luck would have it, 8 years and $250,000 later it flew again. We had to replace a lot of metal that you could not see unless you removed other skins and rivets. Extensive ground up restoration. My dad did a lot of the labor himself and had a fantastic AI mechanic help him that charged an insanely low amount and it still cost $250,000 back between 1980 to 1988. He had more into it than it was worth. That being said, it was incredible after completion and when my dad was done with it I bought it from him in 2000. My dad still lost a lot of money on this airplane and did not give me a deal on it, I paid market price for it. I say this because my dad has been around airplanes all his life flying and working on them and even a guy like that can get something that needs a lot more work than anticipated. What I am trying to say, and for the last time, is listen to what many wise people on this site have said.

Concerning this low time SMOH 172 you are looking at, the odds any 2 SMOH engine, Franklin, Continental, Lycoming or otherwise in 6 years is going to need $ome $erious work! Move on to something else. Just trying to save you grief, not bust yer chops.
Kurt

Thanks again. I'm really grateful that you and others shoot down a bad idea when its a bad idea. I will find out if it was pickled or not. I just feel like this one might be worth a pre-buy if they claim that it doesn't have corrosion and that the engine has been preserved, all assuming that the purchase price allows for the IRAN I mentioned earlier.

Your Widgeon looks stunning. I'll have to hunt for some more pictures of it when I'm free!

Steve

The engine in my airplane sat for seven years after being rebuilt, but it was pickled. No problems so far...1,200 hours later. I knew it was something of a gamble, but it was the airplane I wanted. Unless you have the money to buy factory new with a factory warranty, you have to take some risk.

Not pickled...I'd pass without any further investigation, or make your offer as if the engine was timed out and needed a complete rebuild. LOTS of good airplanes out there, and prices are likely just going to go down.

Hammer wrote:The engine in my airplane sat for seven years after being rebuilt, but it was pickled. No problems so far...1,200 hours later. I knew it was something of a gamble, but it was the airplane I wanted. Unless you have the money to buy factory new with a factory warranty, you have to take some risk.

Not pickled...I'd pass without any further investigation, or make your offer as if the engine was timed out and needed a complete rebuild. LOTS of good airplanes out there, and prices are likely just going to go down.

Unfortunately I think you're right about prices continuing to drop. We're headed for a recession. I'll see what he says tomorrow and keep looking if it's not been preserved.

Steve

lawndart wrote:

Hammer wrote:The engine in my airplane sat for seven years after being rebuilt, but it was pickled. No problems so far...1,200 hours later. I knew it was something of a gamble, but it was the airplane I wanted. Unless you have the money to buy factory new with a factory warranty, you have to take some risk.

Not pickled...I'd pass without any further investigation, or make your offer as if the engine was timed out and needed a complete rebuild. LOTS of good airplanes out there, and prices are likely just going to go down.

Unfortunately I think you're right about prices continuing to drop. We're headed for a recession. I'll see what he says tomorrow and keep looking if it's not been preserved.

Steve

And even if it is preserved you better get a heck of a deal on it.

Do Franklins have a “peek panel” that you can open to check the internals?

EDIT: fixed a typo

I mostly just lurk around here, but I can't resisit...... First, what Hammer said is, as usual, about 100% correct. Second, I bought a Continental powered 172 in Montana about 7 years ago.

At the time I bought it, it was advertised to have 30 hours SMOH in 2007. A closer look at the logbooks showed this to be 3 hours! So the airplane ( and engine) sat outside through 6 Montana winters with littlw more than runup time until the plane had an expensive (but not extensive) annual in 2012. The plane sat for just about another year before I bought it in 2013.

Since it would not pass a mag check ( 300 rpm drop on one mag) I offered what I thought was a salvage price for the plane. First (real) anuual was expensive, but worth it. Besides the usual Continental oil leaks (they mark their territory...) and a top overhaul on one cylinder, that engine has just purred like a kitten for about 330 hours. I still have it and flew it yesterday.

Plan "B" was to find another engine if the original one failed, and plan "C" was to part the plane out. I didn't have to do either, but did keep a VERY close eye on the engine for the first 50 hours. You pays your money and takes your choice. Try to find the very best local people around to help you. I had the best and that deal worked out. Best of luck to you.

G44 wrote:

lawndart wrote:

Hammer wrote:The engine in my airplane sat for seven years after being rebuilt, but it was pickled. No problems so far...1,200 hours later. I knew it was something of a gamble, but it was the airplane I wanted. Unless you have the money to buy factory new with a factory warranty, you have to take some risk.

Not pickled...I'd pass without any further investigation, or make your offer as if the engine was timed out and needed a complete rebuild. LOTS of good airplanes out there, and prices are likely just going to go down.

Unfortunately I think you're right about prices continuing to drop. We're headed for a recession. I'll see what he says tomorrow and keep looking if it's not been preserved.

Steve

And even if it is preserved you better get a heck of a deal on it.

Totally agreed. The discount number that's forming in my mind is $8000 for the IRAN and the parts that might need to be replaced.

lawndart wrote:

G44 wrote:

lawndart wrote:

Hammer wrote:The engine in my airplane sat for seven years after being rebuilt, but it was pickled. No problems so far...1,200 hours later. I knew it was something of a gamble, but it was the airplane I wanted. Unless you have the money to buy factory new with a factory warranty, you have to take some risk.

Not pickled...I'd pass without any further investigation, or make your offer as if the engine was timed out and needed a complete rebuild. LOTS of good airplanes out there, and prices are likely just going to go down.

Unfortunately I think you're right about prices continuing to drop. We're headed for a recession. I'll see what he says tomorrow and keep looking if it's not been preserved.

Steve

And even if it is preserved you better get a heck of a deal on it.

Totally agreed. The discount number that's forming in my mind is $8000 for the IRAN and the parts that might need to be replaced.

$8,000 may cover the “I” part of the IRAN but the “RAN” part may cost double or more of the “I” part. Or it may be ok. Be prepared for the worst while you hope for the best.

lawndart wrote:.... and having them install -C pistons that produce 200hp (another $600) while still having the ability to burn mogas. I personally am not terribly concerned about the parts availability of this engine. The 180hp o335 is essentially the same engine as on a Stinson 108-2 or -3, which was one of the recommended aircraft in that other thread you referenced. Having an essentially zero time, smooth, 200hp engine in an all-metal, four place aircraft for around $30k sounds pretty appealing if they accept the offer I'm willing to make.
....

While I'm admittedly not a Stinson or Franklin guy,
I've never heard of this "-C pistons" business.

As far as mogas use goes, Petersen Aviation does both 87 octane & 91 octane mogas STC's,
and the only Franklins on their model list are 4 bangers.

The I portion of IRAN is $6600 at Airworx, and they said new 335-C (helicopter engine) pistons that raise the power to 200hp are $600. New cylinder liners are $125 each. Based on that I estimated $8. I guess I should have budgeted for valves too. Good info to have in case I come across another Franklin-powered aircraft.

Sounds like the 172 I was looking into sold yesterday for around $25k sight unseen. I couldn't find someone to do the inspection before it sold. Do you guys typically make an offer before or after doing the inspection? If before, is the offer contractually binding for the seller?

All the info given in this thread will still be applied to whatever I look at in the future.

Thanks again guys!

Steve

Many 6 cylinder franklins are running on mogas stc. It is a good thing as the engine was designed for no lead. I have the stc on my 165.

hotrod180 wrote:...As far as mogas use goes, Petersen Aviation does both 87 octane & 91 octane mogas STC's,
and the only Franklins on their model list are 4 bangers.

After reading Higgy's post, I checked Petersen Aviation website.
My old brochure is out of date, as I see they now offer 87 octane STC's for both the 150 & 165 Franklins.
Don't see anything on there about the 335 / 180hp though.

https://www.autofuelstc.com/approved_en ... ames.phtml

I do not know if those engins have an stc. There are not a lot of them. The 220 does not have an stc and is higher compression. I think 180 is higher compression than the 150/165 and most likely would not have the stc.

Please understand that this is without research just thinking out loud.