What type of sign offs or logbook entries are required? Can I remove headliner and start going to town with Selkirk foam? Can I fly while this is in process? I'm talking just ceilings and side panels, seats remain intact.

With so many of these "resto" threads around, seems like there is now a feeling that owners can do whatever they want. Just keep in mind that if you own a certified aircraft nothing has changed.

Best answer is to talk to whomever you will have signing off your books... but in short, (and lots of folks dont care) as long as the material has the proper burn certs and you have an AP that will work with you, you can go to town.

To answer your question, if you make a change, you will need to log the change and make the correction to the W&B. Your AP will need to sign. Some have told stories about A/C being deemed "unairworthy" without an interior, but that's not the case. Some thoughts: Headliner - 10 lbs, Hatshelf - 4lbs, rear side panels - 5lbs, door panels 4lbs, typical carpet set - 11 lbs, front panels - 2.5 lbs. stock cessna bench - 35lbs, etc etc etc.... (obviously aprox #'s)

All that said... remember that nothing in life is free. If you like a comfy, warm and quiet interior, do not go down this road. Light yes, but not posh. "Utility" has its disadvantages...

There is quite a bit of stuff in the list of owner preventive maintenance items that could be interpreted as allowing you to tackle parts of the job.

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Aircraft-Ownership/Preventive-Maintenance

YMMV...

Back when I wanted to add the rear seat to the Luscombe I was going over what I wanted to do with my IA. I wanted to remove the headliner and not install the interior panels that are shown on the rear seat drawings. He said we could try and get a field approval for removing the panel because in his view that was a major modification. I thought that was a little ridiculous but I was going to be his name in the log book.

Prosaria wrote:There is quite a bit of stuff in the list of owner preventive maintenance items that could be interpreted as allowing you to tackle parts of the job.

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Aircraft-Ownership/Preventive-Maintenance

YMMV...

All well and good, but ultimately, if you alter the basic empty weight of the airplane, a revised weight and balance will have to be prepared. And, that is not a task that the FAA permits an owner to do without an A and P certificate.

MTV

Modifying the interior isn't listed on the owner maintenance items.

#9 speaks to refinishing decorative coatings (paint and such) but would not cover adding sound deadening material or omitting items.

#11 speaks to repairing upholstery and other cabin stuffs. But, is it a repair to wholesale replace the upholstery? Is removing (and leaving out) the headliner and side panels considered a repair?

#15 covers replacing seats or seat parts so, upholstery is a seat part but who gets to decide what is approved for your aircraft? As the Owner Operator you should be able to make the determination if something is approved or not but others may disagree.

Without the involvement of an A&P, your actions are kind of limited.

Wether or not omitting side panels or a headliner requires FAA approval (major alteration)..

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.”

... could also be argued both ways. In the end, it would depend on the opinion of the person signing the logbook.

Part 135, yeah, but I'm not sure that flame-proof material is a must for part 91 ops.

Thanks for the posts. Sounds like I better walk through it with my local A&P first.

I snuck a peak above the headliner and didn't see any insulation or nasty glues, just a nice primed surface ready to be foamed!

As an IA I would be unhappy to find the control cables which run up aft side of the rear door post exposed with no protection from interference from improperly stowed items or for example a passengers sleeve. Same for the aileron cables that run aft of the rear spar carry through. An unknowing passenger could hang something from a cable on approach when you are looking forward and you may miss it. Remember there are pulleys at the bottom of the door post and you don't want anything falling in there that could jam between a cable and a pulley when you turn the yoke or move the flap handle. For those of you with young children, little fingers, cables, and pulleys don't mix, hate to have a child loose a finger. All wiring needs to be secured so it doesn't hang down and fuel lines should be protected also. All of these are things any mechanic should be checking for on any inspection, with or without an interior. Other than that I think the interior is for decoration, comfort, insulation and sound proofing. So, if I was to inspect an airplane without an interior (will never happen as I only work on my own airplanes and after all these years and thousands of hours of flying I am not a good enough pilot for 50 pounds of interior to make any difference) unless provisions had been made to address these items I would not sign it of as airworthy. Your mechanic may feel differently.

Tim

Good point to remember...

An A&P or owner may do something an IA may NOT later sign off on during a sequential inspection.

Our shop is close to a FSDO. So an A&P can just walk over and ask (if there is any confusion) on a repair or modifications. Good to have a FSDO as friend if needed. But, that does NOT preclude common sense!

Note: FSDO now require an appointment for entry

FAR 43 app A specifies what is a major alteration.

I don't wanna start a argument but I would see other IAs if mine thought interiors are a major. Different folks have different interpretations but the major vs minor discussion is generally short if the appendix is used.

On a side note- There are several neat and easy ways to make cable fairings after interior removed. The cables really need to be protected during "normal" use. Cessna cables are $$$

Good luck! Love to see Cessna interiors go to their grave.

I just took out most of my interior during the annual. It was in real bad shape and I want to do something different but my main concern was to expose everything for inspection and see what I needed to do in the way of repairs and corrosion prevention before coming up with a final plan. The kick panels next to the pilots legs, the panels next to the pilots arms, the forward door post covers (mine are aluminum), the covers up next to the window that the wing vents come through and the rear door post covers were all put back in and In my interior will remain in the final product.

I also put back in the rear cover for the tail cone but will eventually go with an extended baggage system. I was in AirGlas today and was pretty impressed with theirs.

If I end up going with no headliner then I will bend up an aluminum cover for the cables overhead. I plan on running all wiring under the floor except for one antenna. I plan on leaving out the overhead speaker and lights. I am thinking of making my side panels for the rear seat area, behind the rear seat and door panels out of carbon fiber. Possibly the headliner too.

Or I might end up going with the nice stock interior I found at the local salvage yard.

bat443 wrote:As an IA I would be unhappy to find the control cables which run up aft side of the rear door post exposed with no protection from interference from improperly stowed items or for example a passengers sleeve. Same for the aileron cables that run aft of the rear spar carry through. An unknowing passenger could hang something from a cable on approach when you are looking forward and you may miss it. Remember there are pulleys at the bottom of the door post and you don't want anything falling in there that could jam between a cable and a pulley when you turn the yoke or move the flap handle. For those of you with young children, little fingers, cables, and pulleys don't mix, hate to have a child loose a finger. All wiring needs to be secured so it doesn't hang down and fuel lines should be protected also. All of these are things any mechanic should be checking for on any inspection, with or without an interior. Other than that I think the interior is for decoration, comfort, insulation and sound proofing. So, if I was to inspect an airplane without an interior (will never happen as I only work on my own airplanes and after all these years and thousands of hours of flying I am not a good enough pilot for 50 pounds of interior to make any difference) unless provisions had been made to address these items I would not sign it of as airworthy. Your mechanic may feel differently.

Tim

There are certified aircraft that have exposed cables and pulleys from the factory.

Take a look at almost any 182 used for skydiving. It will be bare a bones interior. almost everything removed. There are hundreds of them flying jumpers every weekend. just need a new weight and balance and an A&P sing off. Reconfiguring the seat belts for 4 jumpers to sit on the floor takes only a phone call and a couple of hundred bucks to The United States Parachute Association to buy the stc.

Bagarre I agree that there are certified aircraft with exposed cables, but not your Cessna. I don't care if you want to remove the interior, go for it but when the FAA approved the type design for each of the Cessnas the interior was in place and the cables, lines, and wiring were protected. Removing the interior may or may not be a major alteration and is probably a minor alteration, I will be honest I haven't looked it up, but even minor alterations require approval. The difference between minor and major is the type of data required. A minor alteration only requires "Acceptable" data where as a major alteration requires "Approved" data. "Approved" data is data approved by the FAA administrator in the form of a STC or FAA form 337 block 3 FAA inspector signature field approval or in certain cases, which meet the requirements of the authorization letter in the preamble, AC43.13-!B or AC43.13-2B. "Acceptable" data also comes from AC43.13-1B and AC43.13-2B and other sources.

When doing a project such as this AC43.13-1B and AC43.13-2B are excellent sources of guidance, for example:
AC43.13-1B par 11-123 Protection against personnel and cargo
"Wiring must be installed so the structure affords protection against its use as a hand hole and damage from cargo.
Where the structure does not afford adequate protection, conduit must be used, or a suitable mechanical guard
must be provided."
You should also look at par 11-126 and par 8-31 (b)

So if you use the required "Acceptable" or "Approved" data as guidance to perform the work and do the work under the "direct" supervision of an A&P it should not be a problem for the mechanic to make the required log book entry for both a minor or major alteration and the form 337 if a major alteration. Just as a reminder, even preventative maintenance performed by a certificated pilot requires a log book entry of the work performed.

Sorry for the long post, Tim


Tim

Seems like a good enough thread to raise this question:

My 172 has most of a decent looking Airtex interior that was put in by the previous owner. It is reasonably neat, tidy, certified, attractive, matches the airplane, etc.

However, my cabin floor is covered with nasty yellow (seat cushion foam) dust after just about EVERY time I fly. The shop vac removes it without a problem, but that kind of dust gets everywhere and into things that are better off kept clean... pulleys and bushings and what not. I am guessing that the upholstery foam is dried out, and when that the seat springs flex it flexes the dry foam which turns to powder.

Since the upholstery is still attractive and usable, I don't need or want to invest in new seats. Is there any kind of spray-on material that is used to keep this foam from powdering? I don't want to spray any solvent based stuff on it because it will create a fire hazard where there was none before. Aqua Net women's hair spray would probably work great but it is not safe.

Surely someone has had this problem before and found a good safe way to fix it.

Install one of these if you don't want to have any wiring for overhead lighting. It has both instrument lighting and mini map lights, and runs on two AA batteries. Mine is mounted to the forward spar carrythrough.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/e ... ghtpro.php

Citabria interior, looking to improve the sides aft of the door. Currently old, old hide of the nauga held up by a spring on top and stapled to the wooden floor. Chainsaw type cargo tends push out to the outer fabric, especially when you pile it up.

Anybody replace the cheapo vinyl with something a little sturdier and more protective like .025 aluminum or some other fireproof plastic panel?

Did ACA ever upgrade their newer aircraft in this regard?

Karmutzen wrote:Citabria interior, looking to improve the sides aft of the door. Currently old, old hide of the nauga held up by a spring on top and stapled to the wooden floor. Chainsaw type cargo tends push out to the outer fabric, especially when you pile it up.

Anybody replace the cheapo vinyl with something a little sturdier and more protective like .025 aluminum or some other fireproof plastic panel?

Did ACA ever upgrade their newer aircraft in this regard?

Are you on Facebook? There is a pile of information on the Citabria type page.
That said, I don't know of any upgrades. I think that going to aluminum sides would add weight to an A/C that already suffers from a low useful load. I know what you mean about the flimsy sides though.

The baggage compartment liners in Boeings are a very light, thin fibreglass type sheet. Really tough. Talk to your friends that maintain airliners. Maybe they can get you some new or used scraps.