I think I got about 3.5 hours under the hood during my PPL training. most of the time while under the hood we were using the turn cord. airspeed and dg an vsi. there was no attitude indicator. the last bit I did have the attitude and found that I didn't use it much at all. you don't need much to fly IMC, but more is better.

I got into VMC over the top on a xc solo....

I had a friend who in his IMC training for ppl had the CFI pull off the hood in a cloud... I think the CFI was an old school guy.

cstolaircraft wrote:I think I got about 3.5 hours under the hood during my PPL training. most of the time while under the hood we were using the turn cord. airspeed and dg an vsi. there was no attitude indicator. the last bit I did have the attitude and found that I didn't use it much at all. you don't need much to fly IMC, but more is better.

A statement like that will make you a smokin hole in the ground in no time. I guarantee the first time you fly into a thick cloud layer solo, you're going to realize, "this shit is for real" not pretend, and not a video game.

Hafast wrote:

cstolaircraft wrote:I think I got about 3.5 hours under the hood during my PPL training. most of the time while under the hood we were using the turn cord. airspeed and dg an vsi. there was no attitude indicator. the last bit I did have the attitude and found that I didn't use it much at all. you don't need much to fly IMC, but more is better.

A statement like that will make you a smokin hole in the ground in no time. I guarantee the first time you fly into a thick cloud layer solo, you're going to realize, "this shit is for real" not pretend, and not a video game.

I think you took me wrong I was referring to instruments... I would probably need a change of shorts if I got into IMC right now... trust me it got me thinking when I got trapped over the top solo... first hole I found that I could drop through power came off and held a >45 deg turn letting the nose fall through I was getting down to where I could see dirt...

Army regs required annual instrument rides to be IMC, if possible. With Missouri weather that was usually possible in the Missouri Guard. Also a partial panel ADF approach is required. We pulled the 110v AC braker to kill the AH and RMI (slaved DG.) That was in a Huey without any autopilot. Do they still do partial panel ADF approaches without autopilot or GPS in IMC, Cam Tom 12?

contactflying wrote:Army regs required annual instrument rides to be IMC, if possible. With Missouri weather that was usually possible in the Missouri Guard. Also a partial panel ADF approach is required. We pulled the 110v AC braker to kill the AH and RMI (slaved DG.) That was in a Huey without any autopilot. Do they still do partial panel ADF approaches without autopilot or GPS in IMC, Cam Tom 12?

Depends.... Some aircraft aren't equipped (for example my old primary aircraft, the OH-58D only has non-IFR certified GPS) and get stuck flying a lot of hood time. Our "partial panel" involved no gyro PARs with the Multifunction Display brightness turned all the way down. No autopilot either.

I've got an instrument check in the EC-145 today but it'll likely be a VMC flight. No time to wait for worse (better? ) weather.


I agree with the majority of the posts in here. The biggest danger in flying weather that's "on the edge" is not being prepared to go IFR. I've been an instrument rated pilot for about 9 years, I've got about a hundred or so hours of hood. I've got 2.8 of ACTUAL weather. Not bending the rules weather time, but actually in the soup.

For me, I have to make a deliberate mental shift to fly in the clouds. Even though I have the training, I don't have much experience actually doing it. Flying in clouds more often would keep the feeling more comfortable and help me personally make that deliberate mental shift to IFR quicker and easier.


I think that not just having an instrument rating, but using it is the safest risk mitigator to skosh weather.


EDIT: the ACTUAL safest mitigator would be sitting on the ground with a beer, but I think you get what I mean.

CamTom12 wrote:For me, I have to make a deliberate mental shift to fly in the clouds. Even though I have the training, I don't have much experience actually doing it. Flying in clouds more often would keep the feeling more comfortable and help me personally make that deliberate mental shift to IFR quicker and easier.

Not that the others have it wrong, but this is the best summary in the thread IMO.

For the first time since I got my rating a few years ago I'm instrument current without resorting to stunts like flying a clear day with a hood and a safety pilot. I've done something like 12 approaches since the beginning of Aug all in IMC. The notion of making a deliberate shift in thinking is right on the money and, at least for me, does indeed get easier once back in the groove of things. As others have said, it's quite different to put on a hood, loose your peripheral vision and focus on the instruments as compared to nodding your head down as you approach clouds, but still being able to seem the racing at you and engulf the plane out of the corner of your eyes. Tons more distracting and disorienting. If I know I'm going into IMC I make the sift 10-20 seconds before I'm in the clouds. Then my brain is switched to the panel and working the flight in that fashion before the rush of being engulfed.

There is a huge difference between what is necessary to successfully fly in IMC and what is taught in the 3 hours required of private applicants. I have told this story before, but it bears retelling. I had a student who was frankly a good stick and a fast learner, but whose judgment was questionable. He had made the comment that he did not see what the big deal was with IFR flight—and based on his performance under the hood, I could see why he thought that. I could not put him into any unusual attitude in a 172 that he was not able to immediately recover from, safely and quickly. But as he was to find out, that is not enough.

We had scheduled his long dual cross country to Jackson, WY, because he wanted to go there. That is a lot longer than necessary, but he was paying the bill, and he wanted to do it. His wife came along. If the weather had cooperated, it would have been a fun excursion. But as we flew northwest of Riverton, WY, it was obvious that the route could not be flown VFR. As the visibility got less and less, I waited for him to turn around, and he finally did. He asked if we could just file IFR and go that way, but I explained that the MEA was 14,000’, and that it was not possible to get any 172 that high with 3 aboard. I took control, told him to figure out a course to Casper, and we would go there for lunch.

While at Casper, I filed to return to Laramie, hoping that we would hit the IMC which was moving east, which had stopped us from flying to Jackson. After we crossed over Casper Mountain, that is exactly what happened. At first it was some scattered, then in and out broken, then relatively solid.

Pretty soon, the airplane was in a left bank and descending. I tapped him on the shoulder, pointed to the AI, and he immediately righted the airplane. Anticipating further excursions, I called Center to tell them we would need a block altitude and that we would be leaving the centerline every so often. My student could not hear me, because we had no headsets or intercom.

Within minutes, we were again in a turning descent to the left. Again I called it to his attention, and he immediately corrected it. But I decided not to correct him the next time until it got pretty far off. Only minutes later, it happened. The airplane gradually banked to almost 60 degrees, very nose down. By the time I said anything, we had nearly reversed course and had lost several hundred feet, the beginning of a death spiral.

This time he was clearly rattled. He corrected everything and climbed back, but he asked, “How did that happen? What am I doing wrong?” I told him that I could see that he was looking out the side corner of the windshield, and he must stop doing that—concentrate on the instruments. He did just that for the next 15-20 minutes, and finally he said that it was too much for him—could I take over?

I flew us past Medicine Bow, and as it cleared up enough, he took over and flew us on to Laramie. He had learned a powerful lesson, one that I could not have taught him without the experience in actual IMC. Maintaining control, without proper training, is nearly impossible.

Every VFR pilot should also look at this video, 178 Seconds To Live; https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... ive%20aopa It is as realistic as any I’ve seen. Watch it on a big screen, if you have that ability. If it does not scare you, it should. Some may quibble with the total time before the end, but no one can quibble with the facts, that continued flight from VMC into IMC by unqualified, unprepared pilots is a killer.

Cary

Adding to what Cary said, even pilots with hundreds of IMC hours get vertigo. Doesn't make you crash, but it makes you sick.There are auto pilots and computers now, but hand flying a Huey was tiring. That is why we had two pilots. I got vertigo in the family car in a heavy snowstorm once and had to have my wife drive. I knew we weren't going inverted but got sick just the same.

During my private training on the dual night Xcountry we entered the clouds in the mountains. Tried to do a 180 turn to exit but my instructor insisted I procede on course. For the next twenty minutes I was sure I was going to die any second. Pop out of the clouds and there is our destination. Take off for the next leg and soon are in the clouds again except this time they get much darker. Turn on the landing light and the plane is iced up. Spend the next 30 minutes thinking I am going to die any second. Such fear and terror I have never experienced and hope not to ever again. Only now after about 1000 hours have I dared venture into the night skies and bad weather always scares me

Coyote wrote:During my private training on the dual night Xcountry we entered the clouds in the mountains. Tried to do a 180 turn to exit but my instructor insisted I procede on course. For the next twenty minutes I was sure I was going to die any second. Pop out of the clouds and there is our destination. Take off for the next leg and soon are in the clouds again except this time they get much darker. Turn on the landing light and the plane is iced up. Spend the next 30 minutes thinking I am going to die any second. Such fear and terror I have never experienced and hope not to ever again. Only now after about 1000 hours have I dared venture into the night skies and bad weather always scares me

Yeah, I don't think I would have kept that instructor for very long after that!!

Actually he was one of the best. He made me fly under the most difficult circumstances and showed me the capabilities off airport of my 170. Last week when I landed a 20kt direct Xwind it was thanks to him

Coyote wrote:Actually he was one of the best. He made me fly under the most difficult circumstances and showed me the capabilities off airport of my 170. Last week when I landed a 20kt direct Xwind it was thanks to him

That's all well and good, but in your earlier post, you stated twice that you were thinking you were going to die any moment for a half hour going to your stop and coming back due to being in IMC.

That's NOT acceptable in flight instruction. You should never feel like you're going to die any moment during an instructional flight. Your instructor should thoroughly brief you on what's going to happen....there should be no surprises.

This kind of nonsense is one reason that such a high number of people start flying lessons, but then stop.

And, everything you do during flight training SHOULD be legal......as in squeaky clean legal. If you were flying in cloud, you SHOULD have been on an IFR flight plan. If you were not, your instructor was in violation, and best case scenario, was demonstrating really bad decision making.

Now, I've climbed through a thin layer, legal IFR, with a private student close to finishing the private certificate, so we could complete maneuvers, etc, and get something done when the weather would otherwise have prevented practice. But, that was done after a thorough briefing on what was going to happen, that I would back the student up, and that we were simply going to penetrate a layer. AND, I worked with the student to prepare and file an IFR flight plan for IFR to VFR on top. After practice, we picked up a clearance for an approach, but the airport weather was pretty good. Again, the key is communication.....

I agree with Mike, I'd have lost that CFI in a hurry. There's no room for that kind of stuff in instruction.

MTV

MTV nailed exactly what I was thinking. An instructor should never demonstrate an illegal maneuver to or for a student - in particular, continuing VFR into IMC, in terrain, day or night. Not a good thing.

I've gotten local IFR clearances many times to get VFR students into the conditions needed to practice maneuvers on top. IMC is different from being under the hood and it's valuable training when it is done correctly.

What you described was anything but!

I agree, Students are looking to their instructor to show them how to fly. A huge part of flying is judgment. A pilot can have all the skills in the world and with poor judgement is a poor pilot. Pushing limits or breaking them, taking chances, demonstrating complacency and shortcutting, encouraging maneuvers that are far beyond the student's skill, or the aircraft's envelope, or the regs are things an instructor can do that will often create a pilot that is a danger to him/her self and to passengers.

littlewheelinback wrote:

"A pilot can have all the skills in the world and with poor judgement is a poor pilot. Pushing limits or breaking them, taking chances, demonstrating complacency and shortcutting…"

That totally nails the experience I had this summer flying AG my first season, even if your skills are ridiculous it don't matter if you don't have good judgement, death is imminent for fools who play this game, IFR or VFR!!!!!!!

Skalywag,

Well said. We have to watch what meaning of judgement we are using, however: legal or emperical. I expect you are talking about considering options and choosing a logical one. We do that when we consider going around, under, or over an obstacle for example. A legal judgement, under common law, is following a legally accepted practice. While looking the other way and generally accepting our practices (crop dusting techniques,) "where practicable" you are expected to be "500' above or 2,000' horizontally from any manmade object." In other words, we are considered as legally having poor judgement. The FAA is unwilling to consider emperical data on maneuvering flight after training in proper techniques. And consider how much of your expensive Private and Commercial Pilot training did not prepare you for the kind of flying you are doing now.

Don't let this grumpy old cripple dissuade you.

For me it is hard to say whether my experience with my instructor is right or wrong. My instructor was one of those 20000 plus hour pilots flying mail in Montana. He had done that kind of flying often. Maybe he knew my dedication and was not worried about scaring me off. Got my PPL in eleven weeks. He taught me I never ever want to go VFR into IMC, For most students who get a PPL it remains only a hypothetical situation. For me it was very real. Even though I flew well in the soup for 40 minutes I never want to experience that terror again. Am I less likely to do that again as compared to one who has never experienced it before? I like to thinks so but maybe I am wrong.