A little follow up on iceman/radios.

At JC there maybe a pilot on te ground, waiting to depart, and monitoring 122.9. If an approaching pilot is 7-10 miles out flying around the elevation of the canyon rim, and makes a call, the guy on the ground probably isn't going to hear it.

I usually will call 10 mi. out from any airport, then again at 5, incase someone has just turned their radio on. At JC., I think it is a good idea to make an initial call when turning south, towards the strip. Then others like you normally would as you move around "the pattern".

In genreal for flying around the backcountry, I think it is a good policy to get familiar with the area that you are flying in, and make occasional position reports(122.9), so that if there are others in the area, hopefully they have there radio on, volume turned up, and are monitoring the freq. Especially when approaching airstrips and convergences of drainages.

Gary

exactly my point... When returning from the north I stay above the canyon and decend over JC to a left downwind and do a short approach from just north of the strip. But most don;t do that, they opt for flying down the canyon...which is ok but limits your options and makes for dicey situations if someone doesn't follow the rules....

I have recently seen that plane, very expensive repairs.
looks like it could have been worse considering he forgot to remove his windshield sun screen

iceman wrote:exactly my point... When returning from the north I stay above the canyon and decend over JC to a left downwind and do a short approach from just north of the strip. But most don;t do that, they opt for flying down the canyon...which is ok but limits your options and makes for dicey situations if someone doesn't follow the rules....

Exactly. There is plenty of time/room to get down without being in the way of departing aircraft.

jomac wrote:one other point worth making i haven't heard yet, i prefer 700-1000'
a.s.a.p...if possible, to avoid a rather rough landing off the airport. should u lose a motor climbing out as mentioned, i have good confindence u could
float 'er back, at least at j.c. like gump said, be cautious of what u listen to and who, but altitude is your best friend in the above situation...
the people a year ago who were told by friends to turn up such and such canyon in order to get to big ck. most difinitely pd the price of bad info and lack of slow flight proficiency. knowing how to make a 60 deg. canyon
turn, would have saved their lives...

Was there an accident that I didn't hear about? Or are you referring to Berk's accident a couple of years ago?

not to change the subject but since we mentioned unwritten rules. Here's one that the violation of really pisses me off... If you arrive at JC and there's a lawn chair in the space you want to park in park somewhere else!!!!! The unwritten rule is your space is yours while you are camping there... One year I went off fishing for the day and, during the SC fly in, a jerk decided he wanted my spot and removed my chair and parked there. WHen I confronted him on it he lied and said My chair wasn't there but he had put it against the outhouse... Two other pilots told me they saw him take the chair away.... Gene had a talk with him about it but he was a jerk to Gene also...nuff said!!!!!

joecub wrote:I'm guilty of this one myself, but I've seen it cause some very tense moments at Johnson Creek, and that is the formation take offs, or not allowing enough time between departures for the air to smooth out. I've seen cubs and been in cubs that were caught in the wake of the plane in front of us and one of these days it may not end so pleasantly. Just something i've noted for myself to be more mindful of. Joe

Guilty, won't do it no mo.... Promise..

Coyote Ugly wrote:

joecub wrote:I'm guilty of this one myself, but I've seen it cause some very tense moments at Johnson Creek, and that is the formation take offs, or not allowing enough time between departures for the air to smooth out. I've seen cubs and been in cubs that were caught in the wake of the plane in front of us and one of these days it may not end so pleasantly. Just something i've noted for myself to be more mindful of. Joe

Guilty, won't do it no mo.... Promise..

Me neither! Although it was coming out of Penticton after a 180 Fly-in, we took off in formation with a good friend on their huge 6000X150 runway, and about thirty feet up I got in just exactly the wrong spot and was rolled about 40 degrees before I popped the stick back momentarily and flew up out of it....good thing the 180 has gobs of extra power and that wonderful wing! Never again!

(At least not if I want to stay married)

Rocky

RockyTFS wrote:

Coyote Ugly wrote:

joecub wrote:I'm guilty of this one myself, but I've seen it cause some very tense moments at Johnson Creek, and that is the formation take offs, or not allowing enough time between departures for the air to smooth out. I've seen cubs and been in cubs that were caught in the wake of the plane in front of us and one of these days it may not end so pleasantly. Just something i've noted for myself to be more mindful of. Joe

Guilty, won't do it no mo.... Promise..

Me neither! Although it was coming out of Penticton after a 180 Fly-in, we took off in formation with a good friend on their huge 6000X150 runway, and about thirty feet up I got in just exactly the wrong spot and was rolled about 40 degrees before I popped the stick back momentarily and flew up out of it....good thing the 180 has gobs of extra power and that wonderful wing! Never again!

(At least not if I want to stay married)

Rocky

Good point!!

Usually in the Maule we are so much higher than mere mortal airplanes we don't have to worry about that.

Kidding....sorry

Sledding at JC

I myself would not take advice from anybody talking about a 60 degree canyon turn. If 60 degrees is required then you are two low in the canyon.

Aerobatics is not recomended in canyons and as I recall requires silk.


Tim

a lot of my cfi friends, mccall and challis, teach the 60 deg turn as a way to do a complete 180 deg turn in less than a 100', losing almost no altiutude. this is a survival technique, not aerobatics...done correctly, it is both safe and vital to terrain avoidance. just a thought, u should ck it out for yourselves, unless u have every canyon memorized in the frank already.
while i realize climbing for the notch is not for all, it does give u some good options...merely an idea. my best ideas for flying the middle fork and it's tributaries come from those that fly it almost every week, for a living. i guess i figure that they have found many smart ways to do it correctly, and i for one tend to listen as i am an admitted part-timer....! guys like ray arnold and the like are the masters in my book.

Hi All,
First post on this forum
I plan on coming west this year in June to JC in my 160hp SC. Where do yo advise I get High Mountain instruction on the way from the Northeast.
We plan on meeting up the week before at the Mo Breaks Fly In.
Thanks
John

John,

Not an answer to your question but....a question. When/where is the Missouri Breaks Fly In? I would like to attend. Last summer my son and I camped at Cow Creek and spent a day/night weathered in at
Winifred, MT. just south of the Natl. Monument.

I see that you are in N.H. I bought my Maule from a private strip/owner(ZIM) about 23 miles S/W of Manchester, back in 2002. Don't know if that is near you.

We live over 1,200 miles away and will need to plan ahead. You can PM me on this site or respond here.

Thanks,

Bob

Jomac, are you saying that you would fly up a canyon that you do not know so low in it that you might have to use a 60 deg turn.

I myself will not enter a canyon that low. I will be high enough up the right wall to be able to execute an easy turn to exit it. If I have to make a few climbing circles at the mouth of the canyon to get high enough then I will do that. That is what they taught us in Challis.

The clean stall speed of a 182B with 60 bank angle is published at 88mph. With 20 derees flaps it is 81mph. Best angle of climb is published at 60 mph with 20 deg flaps. Next time I am up, I think I will try a transition from best angle to a 60 deg turn. Any bets on what happens. Do not worry, I will have at least 4000 ft of air below me. Oh and the stall speed with 20 flaps and 30 degree bank angle is 61 mph. More margin ya think.

All the above is publishe in the 182 owners manuall are at power off. I think that with full power the pane is a bit more forgiving but why push it.

For us part timers, stay high up the canyon wall when going up a canyon even if you think you know it. I would never fly with anybody that thinks they can make a bunch of bad choices and then be able to pull their fat out of the fire with some questionable manuver. I would rather hit the ground with 40 deg flaps strait and level than from a stall spin anyday.

Tim

Everyone has there own idea, I have had my 135 operation out of Hamilton MT for several years, I operate a 206 and Maule M7, and this is what I have found.
With a airstrip as long as JC there should be no issue clearing any trees close to the runway, once you have the plane in the air and climbing airspeed is your friend, there is no good reason to climb at VX, a little extra airspeed will handle an unexpected down draft, if you are climbing at VX you have no energy to trade.
A good rule of thumb for flap settings is to roll the aileron down and match the flap, I know everybody knows this.

Tim,

No one....unless they are suicidal.... ever intentionally puts themselves into a canyon or anyplace else from which they REALIZE that they cannot recover.

But...pilots end up in bad situations all the time. Often good airmen with lots of experience. If there is a technique that could possibly save ones life...I want to know about it and practice it. If it doesn't work for you...then disregard it.

My Maule will turn on a dime.,...60 degree bank....FULL POWER ON on, 20 degrees of flaps.... damned slow. HEAVY UP ELEVATOR! I've worked with it at multiple altitudes, temps and weights all the way to gross.

Bob

qmdv wrote:The clean stall speed of a 182B with 60 bank angle is published at 88mph. With 20 derees flaps it is 81mph. Best angle of climb is published at 60 mph with 20 deg flaps. Next time I am up, I think I will try a transition from best angle to a 60 deg turn. Any bets on what happens. Do not worry, I will have at least 4000 ft of air below me. Oh and the stall speed with 20 flaps and 30 degree bank angle is 61 mph. More margin ya think.

All the above is publishe in the 182 owners manuall are at power off. I think that with full power the pane is a bit more forgiving but why push it.

For us part timers, stay high up the canyon wall when going up a canyon even if you think you know it. I would never fly with anybody that thinks they can make a bunch of bad choices and then be able to pull their fat out of the fire with some questionable manuver. I would rather hit the ground with 40 deg flaps strait and level than from a stall spin anyday.

Tim

Hopefully nobody is planning on making bad choices But I think we all should be proficient at making steep turns at slow speeds, which means using power. In my opinion we should all know how steep and slow we can turn, this may save your life.

In my airplane I can bank very steeply and be very slow with use of power, sometimes full power. I expect that a 182 is very similar. It is easy and fun to practice this and may be handy someday or everyday

SED wrote:Everyone has there own idea, I have had my 135 operation out of Hamilton MT for several years, I operate a 206 and Maule M7, and this is what I have found.
With a airstrip as long as JC there should be no issue clearing any trees close to the runway, once you have the plane in the air and climbing airspeed is your friend, there is no good reason to climb at VX, a little extra airspeed will handle an unexpected down draft, if you are climbing at VX you have no energy to trade.
A good rule of thumb for flap settings is to roll the aileron down and match the flap, I know everybody knows this.

Good stuff.

Tim

The way I remember my teachings of the canyon turn are: prop in high pitch, full power, 60kts. IAS, 45 degree banking turn, straighten out/level when headed in a safe direction, gain some speed, bleed off flaps, find somewhere else to have fun.