Bob and John: Good to see the interest in the Missouri Breaks Flyin for this year. I'll not hijack this thread; look for the new announcement. Ralph Rogers

I've flown the notch and IMHO it's not a particularly good idea. I'm familiar with the wide variety of airplanes that frequent JC and I'm pretty certain that the ones capable of clearing the notch are well in the minority.

The best bet is to simply observe the tried and proven general rules of canyon flying in that country. Flying around there carries with it an elevated level of risk and the old methods help keep the risk to a minimum.

That may be God's country, but the Devil eagerly awaits the foolhardy

If you want some good, and pretty much all encompassing, info on turning in a "tight", as he puts it, get your hands on Sparky's MFB. Once again, a great resource with a ton of info. Then, as mentioned, go practice it. I for one regard this an emergency procedure in the event I screwed up and not something I'd use on a normal departure.

I practice tight turns every once in a while... I try 'em heavy, I try 'em slow... I try 'em sharp.. I think every one should try 'em, every way possible... The idea of not exploring all the ways to get your airplane through the air is spooky to me... A few places up there I'm reading about as slow as possible, 60* bank with full power... Not a big deal really, but can you imagine the poor bastard that tries this for the first time when he's already half screwed, and then he upsets her?.... That is going to leave a mark...

Rob

I think a key ingrediant to all this stuff is, practice, practice, practice. I try to fly atleast once a week just to maintain some kind of proficiency. I seem to usually turn in one direction, so I make myself practic these turns in both directions

These techniques arem like tools, the more you have the better, but none of them are any good if you don't know how to use them.

Gary

all excelent points tim and bob...glad this has made us all think...
my 182 R has full stol, + vg's and it cheats a bit...i've found that after
learning to turn around in less than 100', my confidence level has come up a bit. sounds like your guys know your birds as well as i know mine...
btw, anyone here ever lost a motor in the rough stuff...?

You guys are killing me here. You make it sound like Johnson Creek is the most death defying place to fly on the planet.

Grow a pair, push the throttle forward, fly your airplane up there, and have a good time in that beautiful spot.

It ain't that friggin' hard.

Gump

amen Gump!!!!

GumpAir wrote:You guys are killing me here. You make it sound like Johnson Creek is the most death defying place to fly on the planet.

To the learned, JC is a huge, gigantic, lovely carpet of wonderful runway with plenty of length and as wide as a farmer's field. Departures and arrivals are cake, even for a stock 170 with 2 fat guys on board. If you could land in the first 1/3 of the runway they could hold a kids' regional soccer tournament on the last 2/3.

To the guy who's never thought about the stuff that's been said in this thread, it might as well be an aircraft carrier in a slot canyon surrounded by molten lava.

But yeah, it is pretty easy. It's all the stuff around it that in less than ideal conditions will get ya.

Here's a link to the version of the "canyon turn" I was taught years ago:

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/profici ... zards.html

It works, and I believe is better than what some folks propose, which is almost a hammerhead turn or ag turn. Problem with that approach is you need a high ceiling to make it work, and frankly, it's harder to pull off precisely.

This, I believe, is pretty similar to what McCall Mountain Canyon Flying is teaching, though I've never attended their course.

Anyway, for what it's worth.

MTV

GumpAir wrote:You guys are killing me here. You make it sound like Johnson Creek is the most death defying place to fly on the planet.

Grow a pair, push the throttle forward, fly your airplane up there, and have a good time in that beautiful spot.

It ain't that friggin' hard.

Gump

Likely, but humor me while this flatlander at least takes the time to label his new found pair so that if I do get into a situation that I'm not ready for because some "it ain't that friggen hard" hole talks me into going somewhere that I'm not properly trained or ready for and I screw the pooch flapping my new found pair to get more lift at least the undertaker will know who the new parts belong to just in case you're wrong.

Thanks, THAT is funny

MTV

Oldcrowe wrote:Likely, but humor me while this flatlander at least takes the time to label his new found pair so that if I do get into a situation that I'm not ready for because some "it ain't that friggen hard" hole talks me into going somewhere that I'm not properly trained or ready for and I screw the pooch flapping my new found pair to get more lift at least the undertaker will know who the new parts belong to just in case you're wrong.

I've been called asshole a whole lotta times, but never, "it ain't that friggen hard hole" before. If you're flying into stuff above your skill and experience level, and are afraid of getting hurt, you'd best look at your qualifications as PIC of the airplane and in the mirror for who's in charge of your destiny, not pointing fingers at someone posting an opinion on an internet forum.

Gump

I found my pair when I was about 19, and they've been shrinking ever since.

so funny it is...! why is it some of those nev. and calif. pilots get a little
cranky all the time...!? seriously guys, i started this thread to make us all think a little about one of our fav. spots. lots of good ideas here. take from it what u can and use it to your benefit. don't take to heart all of what is here, get some 'friggin INSTRUCTION from someone, with lots of hours here in idaho. stuff u will learn from them will benefit u at j.c., soldier, vines, or anywhere slow-flight and total a/c control is a must. have an instructor start u here, then go where you would like to go, with them.
there are places u can learn as u go by yourself. the middle fork is NOT one of them.

so at the risk of being labeled a cranky Cal pilot. I haven't had any mt flying instruction, and I should stay away from all the strips on the Middle fork cause they are difficult...????? Does that include strrips on the tributary streams like Cabin and Big creek or Upper loon... Been to Thomas Ck every year for the past 7, along with Cabin and Loon. Indian Creek at least 4. They haven't changed since I first went up there in 99. I missed one year, 2001, the year my son was killed....But I don't go up there cold without practice and I do a fair amount of mt and canyon flying down here... I haven't found any strip of the 24 strips I've been to all that difficult, just different... most are One way only with no go around...which is why you practice slow flt and spot landings as some are shorter than others...

I think the ID backcountry has grown more and more popular and there are more and more pilots with all skill levels wanting to see the places that youtube and sites like this have made desirable destinations. As traffic increases, the range of skill levels widen. Not everyone has the experience of some here on this site, but it doesn't mean they don't want to enjoy what ID or the NW backcountry has to offer. Keep increasing the bent metal, and pretty soon more restrictions will come and ruin it and leave AK as the only option.

I'm not saying that a guy that has 100 hours, all at sea level in Miami is any less proficient than a guy with 100 hours living in Salmon - just different proficiencies. I see nothing wrong with a guy wanting to get some instruction if its his first time in ID any more than a guy from the sticks thats never been around an airport with a control tower trying to sightsee flying the corridor up the Hudson.

Kudos the those that have the experience that didn't need any instruction, but respect those that want to play it safe and get some help or experience. Even living in Idaho, we don't hear anywhere close to the total number of bent airplanes that occur every year, but they happen.

I'm off my soapbox.

Jack

I like to scope places I have not been to with Google Earth.

Rob

RobBurson wrote:I like to scope places I have not been to with Google Earth.

Rob

I'm with you, Rob. Very cool to use Google Earth to scope out the strips and other airports. I also use it to look at the surrounding terrain and area to see what it's like around the airport/airstrip for even incase you loss power on take off. But then again, I'm kind of a map freak (in my spare time, I enjoy studying road maps, sectionals, and Google Earth)

Anyway, YES, I think JC is pretty easy!! I will admit before I went into JC, I was even a little freaked out about the strip (only because of the hipe from some other pilots). But when we got on the ground, I asked my instructor Chris if that was all it's to it to land here at JC and he said "pretty much, not that hard". I'll also have to say that if your not comfortable and don't have the skill to fly in the mountains, then go fly to other strips like McCall, Cascade, etc. You can still have fun flying to airports like that. But even better, get's some backcountry flying instruction!

If you have time, I would recomind getting in touch with Chris or Darrein at Air O Drome Aviation for affordable flight instruction. Chris has been all over the backcountry in my 182 (with the previous owner), other operators and is very knowledgable and competent.

Here's Air O Drome's web site. http://airidaho.com/

GumpAir wrote:You guys are killing me here. You make it sound like Johnson Creek is the most death defying place to fly on the planet.

Grow a pair, push the throttle forward, fly your airplane up there, and have a good time in that beautiful spot.

It ain't that friggin' hard.

Gump

I assure you that death and destruction await all who are foolish enough to attempt it. The only reason I will ever go back is that I have a death wish. Please, for the love of god, save yourselves and go somewhere else!