"Yes, however small and minute, in the car, those are movements of correction, not arbitrary movements for the sake of movement like some advocate."

These movements of correction are based on external references. However if you are feeling the controls by almost imperceptibly small 'dancing' movements, you will feel the need for a correction before you sense a correction. I think that Contact is correct but it is a matter of degree and the degree may be exaggerated while in training so that it becomes innate in actual practice.

Blue skies,

Tom

"One of my Jedi mentors tells me not to dance on the rudder peddles and just give it what it needs."

CFOT, stick with what this guy says.

Yes, Cam. That is correct. Yet it is very helpful to start a student with gross dynamic proactive pedals. He can see what is happening and learn quickly. Same in the airplane. I learned this important teaching technique from a civilian ex crop duster, Ronny Westmoreland. Unlike our young touchy Warrant Officers, he admonished myself and my stick buddies, "Move the dammed controls. How else are you going to learn what they do?" Dynamic proactive control movement is stabilizing regardless of the distance of movement. In nature, baby animals start with gross dynamic proactive hand and feet movement. Zero time humans, admonished to use small control movement, tend to take longer than six hours to solo tailwheel airplanes and helicopters.

A common saying in the medical field is you should never have to think once you enter the Operating Room!! I don't think of what foot I am using when I use my bobcat bucket control it just happens. I learned in a pacer so I do know how to dance even in bunny boots. The cub is much more forgiving but I do give the tail a few wags on approach as part of control check. I try to let the force guide me when I land. I know I am doing a lot of inputs, both stick, rudder, and heaven forbid even brake. If anything I notice it is the stick, the footwork just happens. From a teaching standpoint I would agree with contact. Teach the muscle the large movement/brake application early. The body will remember it and use it when needed. That is what is going to save you when things go wrong and you don't want to have to think about it. A good test is to have someone else apply a small holding force to stick/yoke and on both pedals, you are used to the planes normal resistance and may not notice your small input, add resistance and you will fell your input better. The only problem I have with letting the force guide me is sometimes it lets me develop bad habits .
DENNY

There's tappers and pushers (sure there may be others). I'm a pusher and keep both feet on the pedals and apply more pressure on one or the other.

A flight instructor sitting behind me in the '70's took me to task for constant tapping..."we're not at a dance here so quit banging on the pedals"

Gary

Early in my flying (pre-solo) I had one of those big Aha! moments thanks to my great first instructor.

Having read all the books I could find on taildraggers, I was totally overthinking things, talking about P-factor this, gyroscopic precession that, as I was lining up to take off. My instructor looked at me with a certain degree of pity and said:

"See that tree at the end of the strip?"

Me: "Yeah"

"See how it lines up on the cowling?"

Me: "Yeah"

"Now use whatever the @%#! control inputs you need to keep it there."

To this day, I use this mantra whenever I'm feeling rusty. I guess it's my equivalent of "Use the force, Luke"

The next time you're in a grocery store, load up a cart with canned goods, then push it down the aisle as fast as you can and jump on. It will track pretty much straight. Then take the same loaded cart and turn it backwards, with the swivel wheels in back and the fixed wheels and front and try the same thing. Do it in an aisle that has paper goods or dog food, something cheap. That's an explanation I heard years ago about the difference between tri gear and a taildragger, and to this day every time I'm pushing a cart around a store I think about it!

About the same time I heard that, I was transitioning from weight shift ultralights and hang gliders to "real" airplanes, in my case a Kitfox 1. So I had to get up to speed with 3 axis controls plus learn the tail dragger thing all at the same time. A crop duster friend of mine (not an instructor just a great stick) took me up in his J-3 and in about 15 minutes I got a handle on what those foot pedals did in the air. My first landing was with a slight cross wind, he told me to set up a bit longer out final then normal, and then, and here's the KISS part, like Oregon 189 just posted about, he told me to do whatever I needed to do to keep the plane tracking down the center line. To this day whenever faced with a good cross wind I just let my mind go blank (no jokes please....) and let my feet go on auto pilot and do the right thing. Besides that, I cheat whenever possible and just land my short landing slow flying plane into the wind, that white line down the center of the runway is just a reference point, not a gotta have, and I'm not proud and don't much about where I end up relative to it on touchdown, as long as the planes remains unbent. If my cross wind technique alarms a controller, if I have the misfortune to be at a towered airport, tough titty, he isn't going to be in the shop with me helping to fix things and at least I can maybe liven up his boring day a bit.

For you “dancers”, consider that every time you push/tap on a rudder pedalwhile on the ground, you just disturbed the equilibrium of the airplane. Which, of course, now requires you to now apply opposite inputs to correct the disturbance that you just induced.

If that’s the way you want to operate, I could care less, but don’t do it with me in an instructor role.

As others have noted, I line the airplane up, and KEEP it lined with control inputs as NECESSARY. No more, no less.

I have heard from passengers comments about “that pilot”, who they flew with, who acted like he was going to wet his pants at any moment during landings and takeoffs.

Keep it smooth, but most important, as others have noted, keep your reference point as far off in the distance as possible.....you’ll pick up drift sooner and thus fix it sooner.

Unless, of course, you’re in a Pitts......

MTV

Great idea. Now I have another reason to "relocate" shopping carts to the airport. Do you think this would work as well (for demonstration purposes, that is) on asphalt sloped at 1/2 bubble taxiway or ramp?

courierguy wrote:The next time you're in a grocery store, load up a cart with canned goods, then push it down the aisle as fast as you can and jump on. It will track pretty much straight. Then take the same loaded cart and turn it backwards, with the swivel wheels in back and the fixed wheels and front and try the same thing. Do it in an aisle that has paper goods or dog food, something cheap. That's an explanation I heard years ago about the difference between tri gear and a taildragger, and to this day every time I'm pushing a cart around a store I think about it!

About the same time I heard that, I was transitioning from weight shift ultralights and hang gliders to "real" airplanes, in my case a Kitfox 1. So I had to get up to speed with 3 axis controls plus learn the tail dragger thing all at the same time. A crop duster friend of mine (not an instructor just a great stick) took me up in his J-3 and in about 15 minutes I got a handle on what those foot pedals did in the air. My first landing was with a slight cross wind, he told me to set up a bit longer out final then normal, and then, and here's the KISS part, like Oregon 189 just posted about, he told me to do whatever I needed to do to keep the plane tracking down the center line. To this day whenever faced with a good cross wind I just let my mind go blank (no jokes please....) and let my feet go on auto pilot and do the right thing. Besides that, I cheat whenever possible and just land my short landing slow flying plane into the wind, that white line down the center of the runway is just a reference point, not a gotta have, and I'm not proud and don't much about where I end up relative to it on touchdown, as long as the planes remains unbent. If my cross wind technique alarms a controller, if I have the misfortune to be at a towered airport, tough titty, he isn't going to be in the shop with me helping to fix things and at least I can maybe liven up his boring day a bit.

Anyone who has spent much time driving a boat can probably attest to this:
Big rudder inputs is the center console boat driver who is all over the place. Oversteering leads to chasing the straight line.
Small rudder inputs is the tiller handle boat driver who easily maintains a straight line. Little, consistent inputs keeps the bow (nose) straight.
Little, consistent inputs works best for me.

I think with anything that we learn to steer that is tough we start out with gross movements, and then as we get more experience we make smaller movements but SOONER. I don't think this is a conscious decision, we just learn to anticipate.

When I transitioned to a tailwheel I was all over the runway, and I learnt to stop a turn in one direction with a major opposite rudder input. Now I just look where I want to go and my feet do their thing. I think the tapping idea is really to just get a new student to do anything other than sit still. You won't learn to use an input unless you use the input.

I recently built a backwards bike and learnt to ride it. like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
I don't actually think I have really learnt to ride it, but I am just quicker to use the opposite input before the wrong input goes too far. I.e. I am in constant recovery mode.

When I fly remote control gliders too far away to see which way they are going I will put in any control input and then correct as needed.

The brain is a pretty cool tool.

Regardless of technique, on the ground we have to use more rudder when slow than when fast. I liked to indoctrinate beginning students in dynamic proactive rudder and prevent too fast taxi by having them move the rudder to the stop dynamically while keeping the yellow taxi centerline between their legs. As the airplane speeds up on takeoff, we continuously use less distance of dynamic movement while experiencing more control pressure. Like MTV says, we direct our course to the centerline well down the runway. A big advantage of the dynamic proactive technique is that we don't have to over think precession as the tail is brought up and p factor as the nose is raised to bring the mains off. All these natural imbalances are taken care of by grosser to continuously finer dynamic rudder movement.

The big advantages of the tail wagging on approach is that it makes clear which control is directing our course to the numbers, makes side slip to counter a crosswind automatic even if we don't know that we have a crosswind, mitigates gust imbalances, and prevents continuous coordinated shallow turns through the centerline (wing wagging.)

Check out this youtube of a Helio taking off. I think my rudder use is similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2L2T1aa9J0

I rode with a yoke twister-foot dancer in a C-185 a few times recently. His controls were so loose from component wear and lack of rudder spring centering effect that the ailerons and rudder could be moved up, down, and sideways lots on the ground. He'd twist the yoke and nothing would happen to the ailerons in flight...just twist'n away like Chubby Checker. At first I thought he had a stair stepper built into the rudders for exercise.

That and pulling MP and RPM at 100' after takeoff drove me crazy. I asked why the quick power pull and he said it was from flying floats in Ketchikan during the last century where tourists complained of the noise. Habit Man's still alive so it must work ok for him so far.

Gary

As Gump said, lots of opinions. The imbalances of prop precession as we bring the tail up and p factor as we pitch up to get into low ground effect and coming down in a coordinated turn or off center because we're looking over the center of the cowl in side by side, etc,etc,etc are subtle enough that we may think that we are momentarily stable. I think we move consciously or unconsciously or instability takes control.

The most obvious example of instability I have experienced is shooting rockets. The slightest out of trim condition will cause the rockets to leave the pods crooked because they always turn exactly into the relative wind. By moving the anti-torque pedals dynamically and proactively just a bit, we bracket and mitigate that and get a reasonably straight rocket run.

Riding a bike is an example of the need for gross dynamic proactive movement when slow and finer dynamic proactive movement when fast, but always dynamic proactive movement.

Newton found nature to be balanced and Einstein not so much. I think Einstein would have made the better tailwheel or helicopter pilot.

mtv wrote:For you “dancers”, consider that every time you push/tap on a rudder pedalwhile on the ground, you just disturbed the equilibrium of the airplane. Which, of course, now requires you to now apply opposite inputs to correct the disturbance that you just induced.

If that’s the way you want to operate, I could care less, but don’t do it with me in an instructor role.

As others have noted, I line the airplane up, and KEEP it lined with control inputs as NECESSARY. No more, no less.

I have heard from passengers comments about “that pilot”, who they flew with, who acted like he was going to wet his pants at any moment during landings and takeoffs.

Keep it smooth, but most important, as others have noted, keep your reference point as far off in the distance as possible.....you’ll pick up drift sooner and thus fix it sooner.

Unless, of course, you’re in a Pitts......

MTV

Perfectly stated Mike! Move the controls until desired effect is reached, nothing more, nothing less.

G44 wrote:

mtv wrote:For you “dancers”, consider that every time you push/tap on a rudder pedalwhile on the ground, you just disturbed the equilibrium of the airplane. Which, of course, now requires you to now apply opposite inputs to correct the disturbance that you just induced.

If that’s the way you want to operate, I could care less, but don’t do it with me in an instructor role.

As others have noted, I line the airplane up, and KEEP it lined with control inputs as NECESSARY. No more, no less.

I have heard from passengers comments about “that pilot”, who they flew with, who acted like he was going to wet his pants at any moment during landings and takeoffs.

Keep it smooth, but most important, as others have noted, keep your reference point as far off in the distance as possible.....you’ll pick up drift sooner and thus fix it sooner.

Unless, of course, you’re in a Pitts......

MTV

Perfectly stated Mike! Move the controls until desired effect is reached, nothing more, nothing less.

As a helicopter Is in the Army, I used to watch guys beat the hell out of the cockpit with both the stick (cyclic) and the pedals (anti-torque). To try to get them to stop, I would hold my hands about 2” from the cyclic, and have them try to fly a co,plate traffic pattern without touching my hands. Of course, they would fail, and tell me it just wasn’t possible to do it, that no-one could fly within those limits. So, of course, I would tell them that EVERY pilot in our unit could do it, and so would they before I signed the, off... I would then demonstrate that to them by flying the pattern with them holding their hands even closer to the cyclic.

The we would to the same exercise with the pedals - feet 2” from the pedals, and you can’t move them any more than that. The thing is, ALL of them would initially be using “dynamic, pro-active gross over-controlling” movements of both cyclic and anti-torque, and believing with all their hearts that it was the only way they could fly... Then the light would go on, and they would stop “fighting with themselves” and relax - only moving the controls a tiny bit to compensate for the small movements the helicopter made - catching them BEFORE any significant momentum would develop.

The clincher for me, however, was to get them stabilized at a 3-foot hover, and demonstrate that “rowing” the cyclic stick around the cockpit would waste enough power (torque) to cause the helicopter to descent 3 feet and land. It’s wasnt a real pretty landing, but it made the point. Then we would re-establish the 3-foot hover, and repeat the exercise, using stabbing left/right pedal inputs, and again we would descend and land. It was 100% repeatable in every helicopter I ever flew.

I can’t help but think that “proactive” (meaning before a response is required) rudder movements are wasting energy, and placing unnecessary stress on the rudder, cables, and pilot. I’m in the school of “just enough” applied “just as the undesired movement begins, before any “trend” (think “momentum”) develops. But then I’m a mid-time helicopter pilot, and a fairly low-time tailwheel pilot... So I could be wrong - but it makes more sense to my analytical engineering mind than making seemingly random motions, in hopes that it all averages out to what I really need at that time...

Back in summer 1974 I was working and flying-training in Tok, Ak. for my Private. I finally found someone locally who was an instructor so I could progress some more in my 7ECA besides my own efforts. The fellow was on a BLM contract spotting for forest fires and had worked as a guide on the Alaska Peninsula for years.

We flew twice and had a talk. He said I was improving some but didn't like the constant control workout I had developed. His fix was to lightly hold the rear stick and push on the rudder pedals adding resistance in the process. I soon got tired of pushing pulling and jabbing and settled into applying and releasing pressure over a limited range instead. He never said a word but eventually let go of the controls and that was that.

He taught slips, takeoffs, and landings all in a turn like he used in limited spaces while hunting. Oh and spins...lots of that and a falling leaf maneuver using the rudder in a stall. Then he disappeared to work elsewhere.

Gary

Yes, we all start gross and get finer with iterations. Regardless of experience, we can wait on the machine to get off and then move or we can bracket what we want by moving a bit first. We're better when we move, just as you were refining them to do with finess.

We take them from where they are to where we want them to be. Insisting they be where we want them to be without this process is defeating. It takes longer to get them there that way.

Did I miss something. Are these students or fully trained Army aviators? If experienced aviators, we can expect them to be quick but not hurried (finess.) Lots of little dynamic proactive movement that looks like no movement at all. Makes some believe there is a hover button. No! Static reactive don't get it. Hover button is an illusion. God doesn't work that way.

All good ideas. The other thing the guy insisted was for me to buy the Wolfgang Stick and Rudder book which I did. He said that was all I needed to figure out what works and why. I still have it out in the woods in case I get weathered in for a few days.

Gary