Hey two up front ........ Did you get punched a lot when you were a kid?

Twoupfront wrote:Double

Twoupfront,

As a response to "what other things we may do beyond flying" let me comment. Posters on this board are Medical Doctors, Dentist, Aerospace Engineers, Senior Airline captains, Corporate pilots, Ecucators, University Professors, Military Officers, Air Traffic Controllers, FAA Air Carrier Inspectors, Scientists, Business Excutives, Religious Ministers, Tax Accountants, Lawyers, Law Inforcement Officers, Wealthy Businesmen, Contractors,Nurses,Farmers, Government Officials, Bush Pilots and a few Good Ole Boys....just to name a few. Oh I forgot...a couple of writers and PR folks like yourself.

Many are well educated, with advanced degrees up to and exceeding PhDs. So we stack up pretty well as representatives of our society: indeed many are among our best and brightest inclucing more than one MENSA member. So while opinion, suggestion and even advise is more that welcome. Lecturing doesn't go down well.

Best Wishes to you, your career and your wonderful nation. Gotta love a country that suggests "Denmark for Danes."

bob

Is Ireland next to Denmark? This reminds me a an ex-coworker (Irishman) that would argue with you till the cows come home and always did his best to get the very last word. Things really got heated when he would argue about how F'd up the U.S. is.

(notice how I said "ex-coworker"? Yep, I'm still with the company and he's not. Gee, I wonder why )

Posters on this board are Medical Doctors, Dentist, Aerospace Engineers, Senior Airline captains, Corporate pilots..........

At the risk of perpetuating 'common knowledge' in the flying community-everyone knows that Docs & Dentists aren't especially good at flying-but they excel at crashes......

I'm just surprised you included them with them having that 'reputation', z3....
Oh, I guess you said they were 'smart', you didn't actually say they were good pilots....

lc

Before anyone gets their hackles up, there has been comments here (BCP) before that were said in less than jest....
...And I'm just funnin.....mostly....

Twoupfront wrote:

S-12Flyer wrote:With all due apologies to the dead mule. I have some time to kill before my next case and I can't resist.

Figures.

So if I/we were not your target audience, who was.

The target I was discussing was the broader public and how it perceives what seems to be closedness and sweeping stuff under the rug. That is the target audience that matter.

The sensitive American public?

Read what I said again, and try to be honest when responding to it, instead of that form of intellectual dishonesty.

You profess to teaching us, not how to perceive, but how it will be perceived. Wow, thanks.

I wasn't the first to use the word "teach". I should have used another word when responding to that particular comment, but it seems some of you are more than reluctant to realize that you cannot just sweep things under the rug these days, or even do things that make it seem like you do. This is true anywhere you have bodies overseeing what you do and what you can do.

This comes from what experience? Your many years of debate in open public forums here in America? Your superior knowledge of the American psyche?

I have been debating Americans and American politics since I was a teenager, and I have traveled extensively around the world, including the US. As a journalist I follow US politics pretty closely, especially since Denmark has a history of following directions from the US.
And once again, what's with the constant accusations of me being superior? It's beginning to sound like an inferior complex on your part.

Your accomplishments as a pro-access defender?

I have already explained this too you ad nauseam. Quit with the strawman argumentation.

You laud your credentials as a journalist and a P.R. person and then cry foul when we call you on it.

Another strawman. I point to the fact that you want me to write a press release when ever I speak here, completely ignoring I'm here as a privat person. You're not paying me, and I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am telling you how things are perceived outside of the bubble.

Actually I do hold some of the experienced pilots here with a bit of reverence. Many more of them with a great deal of respect. That is why I frequent this site. (Ok there is a bit of comic relief)

You obviously missed the point. Once again, if we were talking about flying, sure. I could probably muster some reverence for some when I got to know them. But we're not talking about flying skills.

You insist that you do not hold yourself to be superior but compare your lofty educated arguments to be more thought out than our "lowest comon denominator", one liners. .....No condescension there.

If you read it again, you will notice it's a comment to a particular post which reads as a one-liner with no argument in it whatsoever.

I got to get me some of dat edumacation stuff.

Yup, no inferiority complex there at all.


Seriously, I do NOT believe I'm superior in any way, form or fashion. I DO believe that some people are expert carpenters, some are expert pilots, some are expert dentists, some are expert salesmen and so and so forth. Some are expert on more than one thing. If I need my teeth fixed I go to an expert: A dentist. If I need my roof done, I go to an expert: A roofer. If I need my car done, I go to an expert: A mechanic. If I need to fly somewhere I let a pilot fly me there. When people want help handling PR and damage control (and some other journalist work), I am one the people they can call upon.

It's really not that difficult. That doesn't mean I think I'm superior to, say, a carpenter. It just means my line of work is different than his.

"So can I leave it at that?"
Apparently not.

No, I guess not [/quote]
Seriously, if I were your flight instructor now, I would be saying, relax the controls and apply opposite rudder. You are spiraling in.
This would be fun if it were not so easy. I have debated many pseudo intellectuals in the past and they all end up using the same arguments and misdirection. If you can't attack the question, attack the person.You, having drawn first blood, must allow me the same.
I do not need to re-read any of your posts. I am fully aware of their content as well as the not so subtle innuendoes. It is a common trick to thinly veil insults and then claim innocence when called on them. I have pointed out several flaws in your position and each time you claim that I misunderstand your statement. Believe me, everyone who has suffered through this train wreck understands your statements. You are not as clever as you believe yourself to be. Inferiority complex? Again you fail to read your audience. Sadly I must confess that I am feel quite the contrary. I actually am finding it increasingly difficult to not point out more of your invalid arguments.
In nearly every one of your posts you find it necessary to up the ante by extolling another one of your alleged accomplishments. Now you are a globe trotting multi-lingual intellectual. A professional journalist with years of international political acumen. You offer that as proof that your experience somehow trumps the decades of relevant real world experience that many of us have. As a relative newcomer to the aviation world you feel that your background somehow uniquely qualifies you to lecture us on aviation P.R. And that we as doctors, mechanics, lawyers, and carpenters are not as qualified as you to understand the subtleties of the current political arena. At least as to how it relates to aviation P.R. I did not misinterpret your statements. You do feel intellectually superior. You acquiesce to your lack of flying skills and a host of others skills. Yet you are unable to concede that others may have equal or better understanding of this particular issue. (a good example of your misused straw man argument BTW)
Lastly, as to your "figures" comment.
Please sir, do not profess to know me. You have exchanged a couple of sophomoric posts debating an issue on which you are not well informed. I have tried to keep it spirited and somewhat humorous.
Sadly, I have flayed this dead mule far too long.
To all the others reading this, I am truly sorry to have allowed myself to be so drawn in. I do believe that this forum is a valuable asset to the flying community and that at least some of the threads are informative and helpful.
Peace out.

scruiser wrote:I have the feeling I just wandered into the "arguement clinic".

No you haven't

I'm reminded of an old saying, that a very dear Danish soaring friend Max Skovgaard related to me: "You can always tell a Dane, but you can't tell him much." (no offense, all sincerely in jest).

Twoupfront, don't take any of the verbal beatings and lashing out from this forum all that seriously. I make my living as a writer as well, and when I showed up here I had committed far far more of an offense against humanity than you ever could (I had something to sell). The lesson you must learn about this and any other aviation forum is that whereas people rightfully SHOULD treat you the same as they would treat you if you were all sitting around a campfire or in a hangar-flying session at the airport, the same people in the same discussion... but using the internet as the venue... will behave differently. Modesty, restraint, humility, and often class goes right out the window. Trust me, I've been down that road (here on BCP and elsewhere), and rest assured I've paid the price for both of us.

But all that said, i will also offer that perhaps you should let this discussion go, either entirely or at least abandon the hope of your viewpoint on this subject winning over the hearts and minds of the brightly feathered villagers.

At the risk of offending some of the folks here, I will say you might take a step back and look at the harsh fact that the personality and political demographic of this forum's participants is overwhelmingly one way, with only a small percentage of this demographic interested (or perhaps even capable) of accepting or even entertaining an opposing viewpoint. So the fact is that arguing for or against something theoretical, or overly intellectual, may not yield quite the kind of response in this venue that you might otherwise expect from raising the same theoretical or academic discussion at, say for example, a MENSA meeting being held at a distinguished higher learning campus.

Just a bit of advice from a guy who's been there a couple of times (check the archives if you're bored).

z3skybolt wrote:

Twoupfront wrote:Double

Twoupfront,

As a response to "what other things we may do beyond flying" let me comment. Posters on this board are Medical Doctors, Dentist, Aerospace Engineers, Senior Airline captains, Corporate pilots, Ecucators, University Professors, Military Officers, Air Traffic Controllers, FAA Air Carrier Inspectors, Scientists, Business Excutives, Religious Ministers, Tax Accountants, Lawyers, Law Inforcement Officers, Wealthy Businesmen, Contractors,Nurses,Farmers, Government Officials, Bush Pilots and a few Good Ole Boys....just to name a few. Oh I forgot...a couple of writers and PR folks like yourself.

Many are well educated, with advanced degrees up to and exceeding PhDs. So we stack up pretty well as representatives of our society: indeed many are among our best and brightest inclucing more than one MENSA member. So while opinion, suggestion and even advise is more that welcome. Lecturing doesn't go down well.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any PR people actually saying anything in this debate. Being a Mensa member doesn't mean you have actual knowledge. Look at Ian Juby the creationist.

I said it before, and I'd say it again: If I want to get my teeth fixed, I go to a dentist. Having a Ph. D in dentistry doesn't mean that that person is an expert on anything else.

Given your ridiculous mention of Mensa memberships, I can't help but put your post in the same category as the other post mentioning "inferiority". It's utterly laughable.

Best Wishes to you, your career and your wonderful nation. Gotta love a country that suggests "Denmark for Danes."

Ah, yes, the skinheads and racist minorites are spokesmen for the entire country, just like the Una bomber and Pat Robertson are spokesmen for the USA.

58Skylane wrote:Is Ireland next to Denmark? This reminds me a an ex-coworker (Irishman) that would argue with you till the cows come home and always did his best to get the very last word. Things really got heated when he would argue about how F'd up the U.S. is.

1) Ireland is in the British Isles, Denmark is in Scandinavia.

2) I'm not saying the US is F'cked up, am I?

What is with the constant generalizations? If I disagree with some Americans on this board, I'm suddenly in the same category as people who constantly talk shyte about your entire country?

This on top of the other post about some retarded racist group using "Denmark for Danes" to paint everyone from Denmark as racist. Seriously?

(notice how I said "ex-coworker"? Yep, I'm still with the company and he's not. Gee, I wonder why )

Yes, I wonder too. I wonder why you bring up such an ignorant analogy.

DAMN!!!
This dead horse just won't lie down!

S-12Flyer wrote:Seriously, if I were your flight instructor now, I would be saying, relax the controls and apply opposite rudder. You are spiraling in.

Lucky for me: You aren't.

This would be fun if it were not so easy. I have debated many pseudo intellectuals in the past and they all end up using the same arguments and misdirection.

1) There is no misdirection. I'm not the one trying to suggest I think of you as inferior, that you're racist, or that there is something wrong with your country. You guys are.

2) I'm not a "pseudo intellectual". In fact, I haven't said I'm an intellectual, and I have compared my work to carpentry as well as other down-to-earth types of work for a reason.

3) Perhaps they end up using the same arguments because you utter the same fallacies.

If you can't attack the question, attack the person.

Oh, you mean like you and your friends have been doing all along? Seriously, you have got be kidding.

You, having drawn first blood, must allow me the same.

Wow. You really have no clue what you're saying.

I do not need to re-read any of your posts. I am fully aware of their content as well as the not so subtle innuendoes.

Reading things into something that aren't there, doesn't constitute innuendo.

It is a common trick to thinly veil insults and then claim innocence when called on them.

I do not "thinly veil" anything. If I think someone is an idiot, I will tell them so to their face. You seem to be confusing me with someone else. Do I sound like someone who's shy of confrontation? No, I'd think not.

I have pointed out several flaws in your position and each time you claim that I misunderstand your statement.

THe reason for that is that 1) You have NOT pointed out any flaws. Instead you have purposely misrepresented what I am saying, and regardless of how many times I have explained at it, you have persisted with that utter dishonesty.

Believe me, everyone who has suffered through this train wreck understands your statements.

Well, you don't, or rather; wont. So it's pretty hard to take your blanket statements to heart. Especially since I have PM's from people who actually understand my point of view. You cannot envoke a silent majority as an argument. It's nonsense.

You are not as clever as you believe yourself to be.

I don't believe myself to be particular "clever". I know that I'm good at my work, and I know not to use strawman argumentation and ridiculous generalizations which has no bearing on reality.

Inferiority complex? Again you fail to read your audience.

I know you're more than unwilling to read what is actually said. But when I, having no superiority complex whatsoever is constantly accused of such whenever an argument is too hard to stomach for you, I can only gather that it's projection on your part.

Sadly I must confess that I am feel quite the contrary.

Oh, I know. You're a pilot. I'm not (yet), hence you must know everything about anything even loosely pertaining to aviation. That was the start of this discussion, and although you refuse to reread anything to get a better understand of anything, it's clear that you don't think that anyone else could actually have a valid point because it falls into their work basket more than it falls into the aviation basket.

I actually am finding it increasingly difficult to not point out more of your invalid arguments.

So, when will you reread the posts as they actuall are, and take the first step towards that?

In nearly every one of your posts you find it necessary to up the ante by extolling another one of your alleged accomplishments.

If you recall, the accusation was that I was from Denmark (yes, it was an accusation), that I only had a few hours of flying under my belt, and therefore couldn't possible have anything to say about damage control or advocacy. When explaining why, that is wrong too.
Now, let's get to the rest of your nonsense where you read things I never wrote:

Now you are a globe trotting multi-lingual intellectual.

1) You're the one calling me an intellectual or "pseudo intellectual" depending on what suits your argument the best. Not me.
2) I never claimed to be"multi-lingual", but obviously I speak at least two languages, since I'm a Dane living in Denmark, and I post here in English. How is that bad, and isn't that sort of a self-defeating argument on your part?
3) I don't consider myself a "globe-trotter". I have travelled more than the average American, but so have the average Dane. We're a very small country, so more than 99 percent of us have a passport and make use of it.

A professional journalist with years of international political acumen.

Once again with the misrepresentation of what I was saying:

1) As a journalist, and a geeky one at that, I'm very interested in politics, so it comes with the territory to know about politics.

2) US politics matters worldwide, and since we were talked into the invasion of Iraq by and with the US - the first invasion Denmark has participated in since 1864, you might be able to see why it matters what the US is doing.

3) I told you I had debated US politics with Americans since I was a teenager, and that interest has continued up to middle age. Why is that somehow dirty or unbelievable?

4) Yes, I have travelled around the world. But that doesn't make me "globetrotter", nor have I said as much.

You offer that as proof that your experience somehow trumps the decades of relevant real world experience that many of us have.

Way to go with the nonsense. My experience is as "real-world" as yours.

Secondly, my experience is in a specific area, whereas piloting is in another area. Some things - such as how the broader public reacts to (perceived) closedness is the same. That was my point and still is my point.

As a relative newcomer to the aviation world you feel that your background somehow uniquely qualifies you to lecture us on aviation P.R.

Once again, there's no difference in "aviation PR" and ordinary PR when it comes to communicating with the general public. The very fact that you think so speaks volumes about how little you know about PR.

And that we as doctors, mechanics, lawyers, and carpenters are not as qualified as you to understand the subtleties of the current political arena.

If you had been honest and had written ...

And that we as doctors, mechanics, lawyers, and carpenters are not as qualified as you to understand the subtleties of Public Relations.

... I would have agreed. Just like I don't know the subtleties of panel beating, law, carpentry and dentistry, and wouldn't for the life of me be able to pick an engine apart and assemble it again. That's why I go to people who have specialised in those things when I need that expertise.

At least as to how it relates to aviation P.R. I did not misinterpret your statements.

Yes, you not only did. You do it constantly and persistently. As such, the only reasonable conclusion is that you do it purposely.

You do feel intellectually superior.

Ah, yes, I feel intellectually superior in the same manner a master carpenter feels "intellectual superior" when he has made one these:



You see, that's what I do. I'm a specialist in what I do, that doesn't mean I know everything there is to know about other areas. I don't, and have never claimed as much, no matter how often you try to claim I did. I have a skill that is marketable across various subjects and areas, but I still don't know shyte about, say carpentry or dentistry. I'm still in awe over that chair, though.

You acquiesce to your lack of flying skills and a host of others skills. Yet you are unable to concede that others may have equal or better understanding of this particular issue.

If so, none of you have shown that to be true. Least of all, you.

(a good example of your misused straw man argument BTW)

You can say so, but you haven't shown it. In fact, you have shown yourself to be more than willing to misrepresent what I say and then pick at that misrepresentation. That, by definitation is a strawman argument.

Lastly, as to your "figures" comment.
Please sir, do not profess to know me.

I don't profess to know you. I react to your behavior which has shown just how you will go about things.

You have exchanged a couple of sophomoric posts debating an issue on which you are not well informed.

Another unfounded assertion on your part.

I have tried to keep it spirited and somewhat humorous.

Ah, yes, aren't you a humourous bloke.

Sadly, I have flayed this dead mule far too long.
To all the others reading this, I am truly sorry to have allowed myself to be so drawn in. I do believe that this forum is a valuable asset to the flying community and that at least some of the threads are informative and helpful.
Peace out.

Yes, indeed. Peace out.

I've wasted way too much time on this thread too.

Twoupfront wrote:

58Skylane wrote:Is Ireland next to Denmark? This reminds me a an ex-coworker (Irishman) that would argue with you till the cows come home and always did his best to get the very last word. Things really got heated when he would argue about how F'd up the U.S. is.

1) Ireland is in the British Isles, Denmark is in Scandinavia.

2) I'm not saying the US is F'cked up, am I?

What is with the constant generalizations? If I disagree with some Americans on this board, I'm suddenly in the same category as people who constantly talk shyte about your entire country?

This on top of the other post about some retarded racist group using "Denmark for Danes" to paint everyone from Denmark as racist. Seriously?

(notice how I said "ex-coworker"? Yep, I'm still with the company and he's not. Gee, I wonder why )

Yes, I wonder too. I wonder why you bring up such an ignorant analogy.

I'm not talking about you in the reply I wrote. I was talking about my ex-coworker. I never said that you think the U.S. is fucked up! Again, I'm talking about my ex-coworker. Get over it!

58Skylane wrote:
I'm not talking about you in the reply I wrote. I was talking about my ex-coworker. I never said that you think the U.S. is fucked up! Again, I'm talking about my ex-coworker. Get over it!

If it wasn't an analogy, then why bring it up in a direct response to me?

Hey two up front... This is a flying website..... If you enjoy arguing so much why don't you try and argue about things that fly? Your post are a downer . Why don't you go find a political website to clog up and leave this one alone.

Stol wrote:ya see................ The system works...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accide ... 0_247C.txt

The backcountry in Idaho is VERY remote and reporting incidents /accidents takes a few days to process.......

Funny though.......... The Husky@ Johnson Creek and the Cub @ Lower Loon still have not shown up.

Again, from the look of it, it may well be that the husky incident didn't rise to the level of requiring a report (pun intended).

MTV

"sigh"
So the only way to get you to drop this is by an admission of your obvious superior intellect. (your own words)
You have branded us as sensitive racists. Talented in our own right but utterly incapable of understanding the complex issues of aviation P.R.
You are in awe of some Danish chair designer but only as so far as to it relates to their skill as an artist.
The same irreverence you hold for us. We may be doctors, dentists, carpenters or flight instructors but anything beyond that you discount. To use one of your own ineffectual false arguments. If I need a doctor, I go to a doctor. Correct, but not just any doctor, I go to a specialist. If I have heart problems I do not go to a gynecologist. Many of us non-specialist have been entrenched in this P.R. battle for decades. Successfully in many cases. You have absolutely no experience in this particular arena. (American aviation P.R.) Yet you see fit to lecture us on an issue with which we are intimately familiar. Solely on the basis of your alleged expertise as a P.R. guru. Thank God that you stepped up to the plate to rescue us bumbling fools. Just think how much better our aviation society would be if you actually lived here and went to all the local meetings for us. With you spearheading our efforts we could be bulldozing strips in the wilderness all over the planet. If your handling of your own personal P.R. on this site is any indication of your skills, then I might suggest an introspective look at my chosen career. If your handling of this thread is an indication of your potential skills as a pilot, I would not try landing a Mooney in the back country.
BTW, I assumed the chair designer was Danish. The chair looks uncomfortable, impractical, and IMO ugly. But I digress.

mtv wrote:

Stol wrote:ya see................ The system works...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accide ... 0_247C.txt

The backcountry in Idaho is VERY remote and reporting incidents /accidents takes a few days to process.......

Funny though.......... The Husky@ Johnson Creek and the Cub @ Lower Loon still have not shown up.

Again, from the look of it, it may well be that the husky incident didn't rise to the level of requiring a report (pun intended).

MTV

Hmmm...

The close up pics I saw clearly showed damage to the lift strut to the left wing.... I my mind that is a critical structural component of an airframe.... Time will tell how that fiasco plays out, but.......... I does not pay to yank on Supermans ( FAA's) cape and not expect a good swatting in return... IMHO.

This thread has grown stupid, and I'm embarrassed to have it on the front page.