As a plane owner, I regularly see the benefits of getting an A&P license, and as an engineer/pilot, the content matter really interests. I don't have time/money to take the time off full time to go to school for it or work full time at a shop. I've spoke to multiple people who have gotten their A&P by logging hours spent working under A&P/IA supervision on their own planes or helping friends. Then they fill in the gaps in knowledge/experience before they take the tests. They mentioned the requirement being 3000 hours then a recommendation to take the test by an A&P/IA. I do all my maintenance owner assisted with my IA, so I'm already slowly building the hours.

Looking in the FARs, I'm not really seeing this outlined as a possibility. The FAA gives three options for the experience requirements:
1) Accredited school
2) Working full time for 30 months for a repair station
3) Military transfer

From the FAA website (non-legal paraphrase of the FARs):

You can get the experience you need to become a certified power plant or airframe mechanic in one of three ways.
- You can attend one of the 170 FAR part 147 Aviation Maintenance Technician Schools nationwide. These schools offer training for one mechanic�s certificate or both. Many schools offer avionics courses that cover electronics and instrumentation.
You need a high school diploma or a General Education Diploma (GED) to get in to most schools. The schooling lasts from 12 months and 24 months, generally less than required by FAA for on-the-job training. When you graduate, you are qualified to take FAA's exams. Graduates often get higher starting salaries than individuals who got their required experience in one of the other two ways.

- You can work an FAA Repair Station or FBO under the supervision of a certified mechanic for 18 months for each certificate, or 30 months for both. You must document your experience with pay receipts, a log book signed by your supervising mechanic, a notarized statement from your employer, or other proof you worked the required time.

- You can join one of the armed services and get training and experience in aircraft maintenance. Make sure you are in a military occupational specialty for which FAA gives credit. You can get a current list of acceptable specialties from the local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO).

You must present an official letter from your military employer certifying your length of service, the amount of time you worked in each specialties, the make and model of the aircraft or engine on which you got practical experience, and where you got the experience. You cannot count time you spent training for the specialty, only the time you spent working in the specialty.

Or the FARs:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c ... 4.2.65_177

None of these mention informally working on planes like I've heard of, but I know people who have done it as recently as 2012. Has something changed? Is it an "off the books" path?

Would prefer to stay away from hearsay, so far that's all I've been able to find, so I have plenty of it. But knowledge from someone who has done this personally or has a more in depth understanding would be great. I'm not in a rush - logging 3000 hours 1-2 hours at a time, but would be good to know if it's an option.

Thanks,
-asa

You know of people who have done it as recently as 2012? How did they do it?

I know of old timers who got their A&P this way many years ago, it was a relaxed process at the time, an inspector provided a log book and you filled it out. Of course this is hearsay...

1-2 hours at a time 2-3 days a week will take you about 25 years to get the 3000 hours.

Kenmore Air currently has an apprenticeship program set up with the Seattle FSDO, it involves 1 evening class a week and considerably speeds up the process. Maybe give them a call and find out the name of the program, good luck!


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Halestorm wrote:You know of people who have done it as recently as 2012? How did they do it?

I know of old timers who got their A&P this way many years ago, it was a relaxed process at the time, an inspector provided a log book and you filled it out. Of course this is hearsay...

1-2 hours at a time 2-3 days a week will take you about 25 years to get the 3000 hours.

Kenmore Air currently has an apprenticeship program set up with the Seattle FSDO, it involves 1 evening class a week and considerably speeds up the process. Maybe give them a call and find out the name of the program, good luck!

Both of the guys I spoke to said they simply had "approximately" 3000 hours of mx time in their logbooks and got their IA to write essentially the same letter required if you worked full time at a shop, but instead it said they worked so many hours demonstrating such and such skills over a certain time period. One was in the 90's and one took the tests in 2012. And yes, 3000 is a ridiculous amount of hours to be doing it in 1's and 2's. Which is why I'm curious in the actual regs, because I haven't found 3000 hours listed anywhere.

Also a google search reveals people who have done stuff like rebuilt a super cub or champ with the intermittent help of an A&P logging all of that time, then used it to fill the requirement. Maybe these are similar to the old timers you speak of.

Thanks for the info
-asa

Asa -

You might imagine from the amount of time that I spend working on my planes that I'm contemplating something similar. You may have already read these, but in case you haven't here are a couple of articles that I used for inspiration in setting this multi-decade goal for myself. The first indicates that the apprenticeship guidelines predate the experience requirements outlined in Part 147 of the FARs.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2014/may/05/eating-the-elephant-part-3-become-an-a-and-p
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2014/may/21/using-experience-for-ap
https://disciplesofflight.com/becoming-an-aviation-mechanic/

I spoke with a local A&P/IA and DME about it a few weeks ago, and he was very encouraging. His advise was to log time if you do anything at all to your airplane (wash, wax, check tire pressure...anything). Obviously you've got to learn more than how to wash a plane, but you've got to log a ton of hours and the scope of what counts is broad. I've been keeping a log in Excel and he said that was fine. He also pointed out that most guys who go this route end up testing for the "A" and "P" separately and usually get the Airframe portion first. Happy to share his contact info with you if you want to discuss the nuances with him.

- Felix

I did it. Got my A&P in 2013 and my IA this spring. Drop me a line and I'll tell you about it. Unfortunately the inspector that signed me off retired, but I have had a friend do it in the last year. In fact, I took 2 of my buddies over to the guy who signed me off to theirs done as well.

Basically you need someone to sign a letter that you are proficient in everything that is listed in the PTS and you have been working under them for at least 2 or 2.5 yrs, can't remember. Take that letter and 2 copies of FAA form 8610 to the FSDO. An inspector will review the letter and any supporting documentation (logbook) and if he believes you, he'll sign the 8610s for you. Then you take the 8610s to any number of schools for the testing. I used Baker in Nashville. You spend 5-6 days studying and taking the 3 written (general, airframe, and power plant). Then 5-6 days studying for oral and practical. It costs $1500 plus the examiner and room and board.

There are 2 guys on this board I helped with this process as well now that I think about it.

After you do all that, spend 3 yrs being an A&P and go get your IA.

Plenty of side work as an A&P. If I quit the airline tomorrow I don't think I'll miss a house payment.

Alex and Tony,

I should've known that the locals would have the answers. I'll be talking to both of you. Thanks!!

- asa

Good question and good info. I've been logging the time with the same retirement goal. Thanks for the additional info Aeropod!

Thanks for all the info - hoping to do the same working alongside an A&P at home on a few projects... long term goal but sure would be beneficial. Glad to hear that excel is an acceptable form of a log. That’s what I’ve been doing so far.

I am currently in the process. I have my sign off from my local fsdo and just took my a&p general exam yesterday. Two more writtens and a practical to go.

The 8900.1 explains the process. It's more like 4800 hours (30 months * 4 weeks * 40 hrs). It does not have to be consecutive, I did my experience over about the last 10 years.

The fsdo will review your credentials closely. They gave me a tough interview, it was about 2 hours with 3 maintenance inspectors. They were looking for holes in my story and knowledge. They will also do the same to your recommending mechanics.

Feel free to reach out of you have any questions. Best by email mike at go - Aviation dot com as I rarely check my pm's.

If you show up to the fsdo with a letter from your a&p buddy claiming to have the experience from doing owner assisted maintenance it could potentially backfire. You need 30 months if you are working on airframe and engines, or 18 months of each separately before they will allow you to challenge the test.

This is how I got my AP. The process wasn't hard, but wasn't easy either. Logging 0.5 hr here and there waxing, checking tires and changing oil wont cut it. I had just over 5000 hrs logged in a 40 mo period along with detailed photo logs of two restoration projects I was involved with when I met with the FISDO. The meeting went about 2 hours, where he went thru my logbook picking random entries and quizzing me about the day and what I did. As has been stated above, he was really just making sure I had done (and understood) what I was claiming. I was a bit deficient in actual turbine experience, but the IA who signed me off was/is very respected in my FISDO, so I think that helped a bunch. I don't think they are looking for fully formed "experts" and understand that like the pilot's license, getting the AP in some ways is a license to learn. Once I was signed off by the FISDO, I went to Baker on Tony's recommendation, which was well worth the $$.

FAR 65.77 covers this, but you will have to show you had exposure with:

Aviation mechanical general including
basic electricity
aircraft drawings
weight and balance
fluid lines and fittings
materials and processes
ground operation and servicing
cleaning and corrosion control
mathematics
maintenance forms and records
basic physics
maintenance publications
aviation mechanic privileges and limitations

Airframe Structures, including:
aircraft finishes
sheet metal
non-metallic structures
welding
assembly and rigging
airframe inspection

Airframe Systems and Components, Including:
aircraft landing gear systems
hydraulic and pneumatic power systems
cabin atmosphere controls
aircraft instrument systems
communications and navigation systems
aircraft fuel systems
aircraft electrical systems
position and warning systems

Powerplant theory and maintenance including:
Engine inspection
engine instrument systems
engine electrical systems
lubrication systems
ignition and starting systems
fuel metering systems
engine fuel systems
induction and engine airflow systems
engine cooling systems
engine exhaust and reverser systems
propellers

I owned an SLSA in 2010, with a Rotax Engine. When I first purchased it I couldn’t find an A&P that new anything about them. I found out that Rainbow Aviation offers a Light Sport Repairman Class, that was 15 consecutive days. Bryan & Carol Carpenter said that after logging 2 1/2 years as a LSRM you could apply to take the test to become an A&P. They have had a few people that have successfully completed the process. I took the class 1 3/4 years ago, I wish I had logged all of my time, I would be eligible next summer. The only person I know personally is Ms Cammy Patch in Boise Idaho, she builds and sells Gyro Copters, that are considered Experimental Light Sport.

Bigrenna wrote:This is how I got my AP. The process wasn't hard, but wasn't easy either. Logging 0.5 hr here and there waxing, checking tires and changing oil wont cut it. I had just over 5000 hrs logged in a 40 mo period along with detailed photo logs of two restoration projects I was involved with when I met with the FISDO. The meeting went about 2 hours, where he went thru my logbook picking random entries and quizzing me about the day and what I did. As has been stated above, he was really just making sure I had done (and understood) what I was claiming. I was a bit deficient in actual turbine experience, but the IA who signed me off was/is very respected in my FISDO, so I think that helped a bunch. I don't think they are looking for fully formed "experts" and understand that like the pilot's license, getting the AP in some ways is a license to learn. Once I was signed off by the FISDO, I went to Baker on Tony's recommendation, which was well worth the $$.

FAR 65.77 covers this, but you will have to show you had exposure with:

Aviation mechanical general including
basic electricity
aircraft drawings
weight and balance
fluid lines and fittings
materials and processes
ground operation and servicing
cleaning and corrosion control
mathematics
maintenance forms and records
basic physics
maintenance publications
aviation mechanic privileges and limitations

Airframe Structures, including:
aircraft finishes
sheet metal
non-metallic structures
welding
assembly and rigging
airframe inspection

Airframe Systems and Components, Including:
aircraft landing gear systems
hydraulic and pneumatic power systems
cabin atmosphere controls
aircraft instrument systems
communications and navigation systems
aircraft fuel systems
aircraft electrical systems
position and warning systems

Powerplant theory and maintenance including:
Engine inspection
engine instrument systems
engine electrical systems
lubrication systems
ignition and starting systems
fuel metering systems
engine fuel systems
induction and engine airflow systems
engine cooling systems
engine exhaust and reverser systems
propellers

Thanks Greg!

Sometimes it's fruitless to post questions like this on an online forum, but this thread has been really helpful.

-asa

asa wrote:
Thanks Greg!

Sometimes it's fruitless to post questions like this on an online forum, but this thread has been really helpful.

-asa

No worries. Feel free to give me a call if you want more detail. Tony is also a great resource. Obviously it was a bit more nuanced... LOL

FWIW 40 hours a week x 1 year = 2,080 hours.
So the 4800 hours cited would be pretty close to 2-1/2 years of *working full time*.
Unless you're involved with a airplane rebuild project, it would take a helluva long time to log that many hours doing
the usual maintenance work on your own airplane: changing tires, replacing brake pads, etc..
Even if you assist on annual inspections & engine overhauls.

A buddy of mine got an A&P license that way a few years ago though.
He went on to get his IA ticket a few years after that--
even though he wasn't involved in working on anything other than his own two airplanes.

So I have to believe that the FAA isn't holding everyone's feet to the fire re
meeting the hours requirements for an A&P,
or the "work 2 years full time as an A&P" which I think is part of the IA requirements.

Opinion on FAA advanced certification, authority, and flight operations (restricted, 135, government)...

I highly recommend a good relationship with your FSDO. It's an imperfect world. Inspectors will spend less time checking things if they have a prior sense of trust with your operation. Unfortunately (and fortunately for good reason) people are treated differently by the FAA.

Use it to your advantage not demise (I have seen both sides). I always wear an Aloha shirt, shower/shave and clean cloths before a meeting. Never had an issue, just great service and advice.

hotrod180 wrote:So I have to believe that the FAA isn't holding everyone's feet to the fire re
meeting the hours requirements for an A&P.

This is no different from any other rating. You have to have the time in the book to get signed off... and hours have nothing to do with it, its calendar time.

Backcountry mechanics:

Occasionally (its more common now), logged turbine engine maintenance experience is mentioned by the inspectors when applying for your work experience A&P sign off. Luckily there are about 50 caravans in Hawaii that need lots of work and cool people that will usually hire. But, if you are in the "middle of nowhere grass strip" working on reciprocating engines, the FAA inspector (and/or other mechanics) will hopefully point you in the right direction to satisfy the requirement.

asa wrote:Alex and Tony,

I should've known that the locals would have the answers. I'll be talking to both of you. Thanks!!

- asa

Grassstrippilot wrote: by Grassstrippilot » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:12 pm

Good question and good info. I've been logging the time with the same retirement goal. Thanks for the additional info Aeropod!

Anytime guys, I'm happy to loan out some study material too.

IMG_0382 by AEROPOD, on Flickr

I wanted to bring this back up, may be more appropriate for restoration/home build, may be a question already answered. Can anyone who is A/P like Bigrenna tell a cert. pilot, such as myself, how much interior work he can do on his own plane and be within the regs of CFR 43.3? It is not feasible for someone such as myself to get the hours in for an A/P although that would be awesome so the next best thing is to determine how far I can go with a restoration myself as a cert. pilot and what must be pushed off to a certified A/P, resto shop.
Thanks,
H Nay