I will soon be embarking on a long cross country. Let's say 2500 miles round-trip. I have not done a trip of this distance before and am course am thinking of posssible scenarios.

Last night I thought of something... let's say I am 1000 miles from home, and have a generator failure or something similar. Something that will not affect the safety of VFR flight but none the less needs to be addressed. I would need to have the airplane repaired, but up until now I have never taken the engine/airframe logbooks with me, and in my opinion it makes the most sense not to. Would you take the logbooks with you, and if not, what do you do if some unexpected maintenance crops up? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but just wondering what the right thing to do is.

Never bring your log books with you in the airplane... At least that's what I was always taught.

Most progressive A&Ps these days will just print their entry on a sticker. Take it with you and stick it in when you get home. If you really want the info, scan em and carry the PDFs on your mobile device or iPad for reference.

+1

Yup, just what bigrenna said. Also, leave your pilot logbook at home too. There are lots of reasons for this. I have friends that have had them stolen out of rental cars and one who crashed his plane and the ensuing fire destroyed them. He had a heck of a time dealing with the Feds trying to prove that he was IFR current for the flight. And, you just don't want to loose them.

Something you do want to take with you is a copy of the aircraft's service and parts manuals. Just this last weekend I had an issue away from my home base. The mechanic said he didn't have a parts manual to get a part number to see if he had one in stock. No problem. Whipped out my iPad and had the part number in less than a minute. You can also carry it on a jump drive if you don't have a tablet.

Sounds like a fun trip. Where you headed?

makes sense, thanks!

I carry a small zipper bag in the plane at all times, with much of the required "stuff" in it. In a three ring binder carried in that bag, I have a copy of the Airplane Flight Manual (and NO, that is NOT the Airplane Flying Handbook, or the Owner's Manual, or...., and YES the AFM is required to be aboard the aircraft at all times), and xerox copies of the latest Airframe Annual, Engine Annual, Propeller Annual inspections, as well as a copy of the most recent Transponder cert, and the most recent Pitot/Static certification. I also keep a copy of the page from my logbook which shows MY currency, ie: Flight Review, Instrument currency, etc.

IF you are every approached for a Ramp Check, handing an inspector this three ring binder will almost guarantee a quick and favorable outcome. Further, if you DON'T have this stuff on board, an Inspector can ask you to provide evidence of annual inspection, etc at a later date, which is just another minor hassle. Keep copies on board, and they can see everything they need to see NOW. CBP approaches you for a ramp check....dazzle em with all this paper...these guys eat sleep and breath paperwork, so they'll like it.

No guarantees, but this is a VERY simple way to expedite any inspections, unlikely as they may be, and a sign of a professional approach.

MTV

I don't recommend carrying the logs. To each their own.

I only carry the minimum docs required....used to be ARROW, now it is just AROW. Ramp checks have always been fast and to the point, and when they asked about more docs, I just said I didn't have them available, and that was always good enough for them.

As for the Owner Manual vs POH thingy, I carried a Owner Manual when I got ramped each time. That was fine with them as well, every time. My planes have always been a lot older than me, and getting a POH has been pretty much impossible. Cessna told me they could not even provide me with a POH for my 62 182E any longer because there was a was a gap in their records, flood, fire, or something.

Cessna told me they could not even provide me with a POH for my 62 182E any longer because there was a was a gap in their records, flood, fire, or something.

I think this might be a place where we BCPers could fairly easily help each other out. Someone that has a POH for your aircraft could send you an scanned electronic copy that you could print/carry in an iPad/other.

Maybe troll on here for a willing benefactor...
lc

Lesuther wrote: "As for the Owner Manual vs POH thingy, I carried a Owner Manual when I got ramped each time. That was fine with them as well, every time. My planes have always been a lot older than me, and getting a POH has been pretty much impossible. Cessna told me they could not even provide me with a POH for my 62 182E any longer because there was a was a gap in their records, flood, fire, or something."

It's NOT a Owner Manual or POH thingy....... Please READ FAR 91.9:

§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by § 21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in § 121.141(b); and

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

Cessna did NOT lose the Flight Manual information for any airplanes. Maybe they lost the POH data, but if they had actually lost the Flight Manual information for a particular airplane, they could never certify another of that model of airplane. The FLIGHT MANUAL must be IN the airplane at all times for flight. No wiggle room in that FAR, and any Inspector should know the difference between a Flight Manual and a POH.

In late model airplanes, it can get confusing, because in all new airplanes, the AFM material is incorporated INTO the Pilot Operating Handbook. In those cases, the POH will say somewhere in the introduction that THAT document must be present in the airplane at all times for flight.

But, older airplanes typically had separate AFM from the POH or "Owner's Manual". I had an argument a few years ago with a fellow who had just had a Super Cub refurbished and he and his mechanic claimed that no Flight Manual was required (it was a 51 model).....till I referred them to the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the airplane, which clearly stated that a flight manual, number xxxxxx was required to be in the aircraft at all times.

What's the make and model of your Cessna? I'll bet the TCDS requires a FM.

MTV

mtv wrote:What's the make and model of your Cessna? I'll bet the TCDS requires a FM.MTV

Of course you are correct.

However, it is not available for my plane. It was also not available for the Piper I had years ago. I was ramped a few times in it, and I simply explained that fact to the gentlemen, and they were fine with the explanation. In the case of my 182E, the manual consisted essentially of a copy of the booklet I currently have, according to Cessna, plus a list of installed equipment, plus a factory W&B. I have the list of equipment installed in the logbooks, I have a valid W&B, and the reprint booklet.

I highly doubt the absence of an unobtainable booklet that is the same as the one I have only with some holy water and fairy dust sprinkled on it, would render my 1701 pounds of aluminum a paperweight. I could be wrong.

eh, maybe take a copy of your last annual.
Generally the only time you want your logbooks in the airplane is if you have been doing shoddy maintenance and it's on fire following the accident.

Generally the only time you want your logbooks in the airplane is if you have been doing shoddy maintenance and it's on fire following the accident.

I hadn't thought of that option before.....

lc

lesuther wrote:

mtv wrote:What's the make and model of your Cessna? I'll bet the TCDS requires a FM.MTV

Of course you are correct.

However, it is not available for my plane. It was also not available for the Piper I had years ago. I was ramped a few times in it, and I simply explained that fact to the gentlemen, and they were fine with the explanation. In the case of my 182E, the manual consisted essentially of a copy of the booklet I currently have, according to Cessna, plus a list of installed equipment, plus a factory W&B. I have the list of equipment installed in the logbooks, I have a valid W&B, and the reprint booklet.

I highly doubt the absence of an unobtainable booklet that is the same as the one I have only with some holy water and fairy dust sprinkled on it, would render my 1701 pounds of aluminum a paperweight. I could be wrong.

Here's the cite from the TCDS: Production Basis Production Certificate No. 4. Delegation Option Manufacturer No. CE-1 authorized to issue airworthiness certificates under delegation option provisions of Part 21 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations.
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness requirements (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18266591 through 18268586 and R18200584 through R18202041. In addition, the following item of equipment is required:

A xerox copy of the FM is acceptable, but without that, the airplane is not AIRWORTHY. Unless of course, your plane falls outside that S/N range.

There are no exceptions that I've heard of. We don't get to pick and choose what's required to be legal, just because its inconvenient.

As the man said, there's someone out there with a copy. Copies are acceptable.

And, the FAA doesn't give a rip whether Cessna sells them....they came with the plane...what did you do with it? Or did you buy an unairworthy airplane? That's why we do pre buys.

MTV

And, the FAA doesn't give a rip whether Cessna sells them....they came with the plane...what did you do with it? Or did you buy an unairworthy airplane? That's why we do pre buys.

Ouch!

Stay completely retired, Mike.
Please no consulting/training sessions for/with the FAA....

lc

180s before about 1979 are exempt:)

"The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on."

Not exactly:

NOTE 2. A. The following placards must be displayed in front of and in full view of the pilot:
(1) On Models 180, 180A and 180B
(a) "This airplane must be operated as a normal category airplane in compliance with the
Flight Manual."
(b) "No acrobatic maneuvers, including spins, approved."
(c) "Both tanks on for takeoff and landing."
(d) As floatplane: "Retract water rudder during takeoff and landing."
(e) When wheel skis are installed, "Do not extend or retract while in motion on the ground."
(2) On Models 180C, 180D, 180E and 180F
(a) "This airplane must be operated as a Normal Category airplane in compliance with
operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals.

The 180, 180A and B require a flight manual. Note, however that the placard for the D, E and F also specify that you must comply with operating limitations stated in "manuals". That would, most likely be the Pilot Operating Handbook, which would in this case, be required to be aboard the airplane at all times.

For perspective, my Cessna 170B has a four page Flight Manual, which must be aboard the plane when in flight. A few years ago, mine was getting pretty tattered so I called Cessna parts. Sent me a new one. Cost ten bucks as I recall. Specific to serial number.

All Super Cubs had a Flight Manual, again, which must be aboard the airplane for flight. And, again, the flight manual is NOT the "owner's handbook" in those airplanes.

All new airplanes, since the early 80s, incorporate the Flight Manual data into the Pilot Operating Handbook, which is NOW a standardized document by GAMA fiat. One of the problems these days is that many folks learned to fly in newer airplanes, and therefore assume that the POH is in fact the Flight Manual. It MAY BE, but in older airplanes, it often is a separate document.

MTV

I never carry my logbooks with me. I do carry a copy of the last 337 in the POH with my W&B. Now if your a progressive sort, new technology can be a big help. I scanned all my logbooks and made the set into a PDF of Airframe, Engine & supplemental & 337's. They all fit on a thumb drive. I also have a copy on my iPad & in my Garmin 796. In the set I have a PDF of the parts, maintenance & the AFM. I managed to score the parts & Maintenance on the web, it was an evening's work doing the scanning of everything. I say scanning, but I really set the DSLR on a tripod looking down and photographed each page, then converted them to PDF's and electronically stitched them together into virtual books. I keep all this in a USB drive in a pouch, along with spare keys and such in my AFM in the aircraft, along with PDF's of all the avionics pilot guides, install guides. In fact, if I find some useful information in PDF form I add it to the collection. So I can be off grid and still find what I need.

Keeping a current scanned copy of your logbooks also protects you from logbook loss, or ransom demands from cone headed maintainers. "keep them, I've got a backup set." I've been doing this on all my leased aircraft for years, I even have the lessees send me any current entries as PDF's to add to the collections (it is part of the contract).

I suppose you could keep a scanned copy of your flight logbook as well, but other than somebody signing in it for a bi-annual or instrument check, I've never had to show it to a soul...soulless maybe.

MTV,

Interesting discussion. I had always been told that most light aircraft prior to 1979 did not require a flight manual. Most came with owners manuals.

From AOPA

"Aircraft under 6,000 pounds gross weight, manufactured and flown by their first retail owners before March 1, 1979, don't require an approved airplane flight manual (AFM). Conversely, aircraft over 6,000 pounds, all transport-category aircraft, and all aircraft manufactured after March 1, 1979, do require an official AFM. Note: A handful of aircraft built before March 1, 1979, but not delivered and flown until after March 1, 1979, would also have to have an AFM."

FAR 91.9

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.


So from that I get that my 1949 Cessna 170 only needs the required placards. I don't see how the placard stating,

(a) "This airplane must be operated as a Normal Category airplane in compliance with
operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals."

requires you to have the manual on board the aircraft, just that it has to operated according to the manuals.

Unfortunately the FARs are poorly written for Pilots and left open to independent interpretation by individual FAA inspectors.

Any way thats my 2 cents. I have the book the aircraft came with on board I think its the Owners Manual.

Waterboy,

Groan!!! Yes, Twombly wrote that bit in AOPA some time ago, and I specifically wrote to him and Tom Haines, the Editor in Chief, illustrating that that information was specifically wrong.

Contrary to your statement, in at least this case, FAR 91.9 is quite clear: If an Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) is required, it must be on board the airplane for the airplane to be considered airworthy. Same goes for required placards.

Soooo, where does one find THAT information (the required placards/flight manual)? The answer is the Type Certificate Data Sheet for your aircraft. These can be found at: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enFrameSet

Once you find the TCDS for your airplane, you need to scroll down to the list of requirements for all aircraft. Here's that data for the Cessna 170:

Interior Equipment
401. Cabin heater valve assembly 1 lb. (-2) (-2) (-2)
402. (a) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual and pertinent revisions  applicable to the particular model, serial number, and landing gear installation

That section goes on to list a whole bunch of AFM supplements that are required for specific installed equipment.

Here's a link to the 170 TCDS: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enDocument

And, you will note that the "Owners manual" is NOT on the list of required equipment. It need not be aboard the airplane...ever.

If I were you, I'd find that four page AFM for your airplane, or order a new one from Cessna parts. And, you might want to chat with your mechanic....if he/she hasn't located that and verified that it's in the airplane, then his/her signoffs of annual inspections are not correct.

FWIW. Believe erroneous information posted by AOPA, or read the TYPE CERTIFICATE REQUIREMENTS for your own airplane.

And, frankly, MOST pre 1979 airplanes did have an AFM. THe 1979 date was when the General Aviation Manufacturers Association realized that the FAA was about to dictate to them some "standardized" presentation of AFM data, so GAMA got it's members to all agree to a "standard" format Pilot Operating Handbook, which would ALWAYS contain the required AFM data. A good idea, indeed, since it generally precludes the kind of mis information that Twombly wrote.

MTV

Waterboy,

Here's a picture of the AFM front page for the 170:


MTV