Not sure aboyt the YS, but in Canada to legakky fly an aircraft more then 25NM feom your home strip the following ia eequieed on board
A-airworthiness certificate
R-registration certificate.
O-operators handbook
W-weight and balance
J-journey log
I-insurance
L-licence

So from that I gather that the operators handbook MUST be carried on board. At least on Canadian aircraft.

Feel free to correct me MTV, you know better then I.

David

A-1,

Sorry, no expert on Canadian rules here....

But, in the US, the mnemonic is:

A: Airworthiness Certificate
R: Registration (FAA)
R: Radio Station License (Not required WITHIN the US, only for international travel--ICAO requirement)
O: Operating Limitations (This is specifically, per FAR 91.9: Placards, Markings and Flight Manual)
W: Weight and Balance (current certificate for THAT aircraft)

The placards are those spelled out as required in the TCDS. Markings include Instrument markings, such as found on your airspeed indicator/oil temp/oil pressure instruments, etc. And, of course, the flight manual, if one is specified, or the flight manual DATA, which after 1979 will be incorporated into the POH.

MTV

The '53 180 we had spent the better part of a decade on an air taxi certificate. As we all know, a conformity check is done by the FAA on 135 aircraft and they are also prone to the frequent ramp check. There was no individual document that was an AFM. There were placards and a weight and balance sheet. Right or wrong, it got by without issue.

On another note: Mike that is a great looking 170 you have for sale and looks to me like it's priced pretty close to right. I doubt you'll have it for long. Good luck on your search for a -11. My old one with flaps and a bunch of other mods was for sale back east a couple if months ago.

Back when I learned to fly aircraft had to have either placards or an AFM but as my instructor pointed out no light aircraft came with an AFM in those days so it was an academic point that would no doubt be asked on your written and/or oral.

dogpilot wrote:I say scanning, but I really set the DSLR on a tripod looking down and photographed each page, then converted them to PDF's and electronically stitched them together into virtual books.

That's a heck of an idea! [read: a hellava lotta work]

Could I talk you [read: con you] into doing that for my Stearmans and 185. Combined they only total 210 years of log book entries. Shouldn't take too long. Of course the 185 was in Canada for a while so there is that whole "every flight is part of the airframe log" thing, but that was only for 20 years or so. I've got faith you can knock it out in no time.

MTV

Sorry for the "Groan". I was just trying to gain a better understanding with the conflicting information.

Ken

Ken,
Not at all. Actually, that AOPA quote came to my attention by one of my commercial students in my Systems class. He thought he'd caught me in error, till I gave him a tour of the TCDS for ten or so "old" airplanes, all of which called for an AFM.

porter jet,

The FIRST PA 18 came with an AFM. Just how long you been flying?

GB,

I flew in AK for 30 years, got ramped a number of times, every one asked for AFM data. There are Inspectors who are dumber than dirt, no doubt...... But, does the TCDS for YOUR plane require an AFM? Some don't

MTV

If it seems like too much work… hire a high school kid for minimum wage, or free flight time. Set it up, show him/her/it how to do it and walk away, at most it may run you $50, but once done, its done, except for new stuff. Like I said, I have every conceivable book, log, install, parts and AFM on three devices. I suppose when the Apple/Google watch comes out, if it has an aviator face, I'll have them on that as well.

Boeing was testing a virtual parts manual with a device that preceded Google Glass. The worker could be looking at the part with parts manual pages coming up in the glasses to cross correlate. Kind of cool. Perhaps when they get Google Glass beyond the Porn Phase of testing, it may be useful for something like this.

Electronic logs also make it easy to sell your aircraft. You can just email them to the tire kickers.

As far as old plane AFM's, My birddog's AFM was a two page sheet, I shrunk it, printed and laminated it. I stuck it on the relay box like a placard. Lots of old aircraft, that is the extent of their manual, notice the first line, "this document must be kept in the aircraft at all times", this is from 1950:

On my recent cross country of 16 days I did not take my logbooks. I was also taught not to. I did get some work done at a certified station and they did give me stickers to put in the appropriate log books.

I have scanned in most of my log book information - note to self - complete for the last year...

I have a scanner and can scan into pdf form without the conversion. It doesn't really take that long. I do have an airplane that was manufactured in 2008 though !! I have offered to do some friends books. I did the most recent 3 years and it took less than an hour. I expect if you took it in little bunches you would have them in no time (50 year old plane - 3-5 years at a time - 10 hours - 10 days). I really like the idea of having that information "in the cloud" on your ipad and in a jump drive!!

Before 1979 Aircraft that originally had an AFM(Approved Flight Manual) require an AFM. Neither my 205 or 207 have one they do have POH's.AFM Not required.
My PA12 Does however have one. It's just a cheesy typed thing but it is required.

182E does not require one.

I think you may be putting out bad advice. If you read the TC for a 182 the following notes, buried way down the TC show that it must have a manual in addition to placards and markings. It is always better to have something, even if your not sure, but careful reading of a TC completely through will usually tell you what you need to know:

Excerpt from the TC:

C. Applicable to Models 182E, 182F, 182G, 182H, 182J, 182K, 182L, 182M
(1) In full view of the pilot:
(a) "This airplane must be operated as a normal category airplane in compliance with operating
limitations stated in the form of placards, markings and manuals. No acrobatic maneuvers including spins approved.
Flight Maneuvering Load Factors
Flaps Up +3.8 -1.52
Flaps Down +3.5
Maximum design weight 2800 lb.
Reference weight and balance data for loading instructions."
(2) On the fuel selector valve plate:
"Both off. Left tank level flight only 31 gal. Both on for landing and takeoff all flight attitudes 60 gal. Right tank level flight only 31 gal."
(3) On the control lock:
"Control lock - Remove before starting engine."
(4) On the baggage door:
"120 lb. maximum baggage and/or auxiliary seat passengers. For additional loading instructions, see weight and balance data."

The TC for the E model is here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/35fc67d0e75cd1ba8625796d006aad2b/$FILE/3A13%20Rev%2070.pdf

I cannot find the reference to a required manual on page 8 that you are referring to. The first reference to a manual is way,way down in the model list. The reference you point out is for a placard. The placard does not mandate a manual.

Again, some planes are TC'd without one. It's a good thing an AFM is not required for these aircraft....they never existed in the first place!

It starts on page 21 and continues on page 22 of the TC, part of revision 66 of TC 3A13

mtv wrote:Ken,
Not all. Actually, that AOPA quote came to my attention by one of my commercial students in my Systems class. He thought he'd caught me in error, till I gave him a tourer of the TCDS for ten or so "old" airplanes, all of which called for an AFM.

porter jet,

The FIRST PA 18 came with an AFM. Just how long you been flying?

GB,

I flew in AK for 30 years, got ramped a number of times, every one asked for AFM data. There are Inspectors who are dumber than dirt, no doubt...... But, does the TCDS for YOUR plane require an AFM? Some don't

MTV

I don't know. Don't have it anymore and my current airplane is still in pieces at the Rans factory. I guess I get to write some of the rules for this one being that I or one of my partners will be the manufacturer.

This is an excellent discussion and I am glad it came up. Paperwork is what runs the world these days. Everybody check and see what they need for their aircraft. Could save you from some major hassle down the line.

Edit: By serial number, no AFM required by TCDS until the later 180J models which must be around '74 or '75. That's the way I read it anyway.

From TCDS:

NOTE 1.
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on.

Lots of folks tossing around their interpretation of the "rules".
Why not go direct to the folks who make/enforce those rules & ASK 'em? Even get them to post the chapter/verse of what's needed/not.

NimpoCub wrote:Lots of folks tossing around their interpretation of the "rules".
Why not go direct to the folks who make/enforce those rules & ASK 'em? Even get them to post the chapter/verse of what's needed/not.

I think the frustration is which interpretation would you trust? Your IA? Local FSDO? Regional office? Oklahoma City? You'd get 3 different answers from 10 different people. Then you might still get busted. "So and so in OKC said it was OK, Mister Inspector". Really?

gbflyer wrote:

mtv wrote:Ken,
Not all. Actually, that AOPA quote came to my attention by one of my commercial students in my Systems class. He thought he'd caught me in error, till I gave him a tourer of the TCDS for ten or so "old" airplanes, all of which called for an AFM.

porter jet,

The FIRST PA 18 came with an AFM. Just how long you been flying?

GB,

I flew in AK for 30 years, got ramped a number of times, every one asked for AFM data. There are Inspectors who are dumber than dirt, no doubt...... But, does the TCDS for YOUR plane require an AFM? Some don't

MTV

I don't know. Don't have it anymore and my current airplane is still in pieces at the Rans factory. I guess I get to write some of the rules for this one being that I or one of my partners will be the manufacturer.

This is an excellent discussion and I am glad it came up. Paperwork is what runs the world these days. Everybody check and see what they need for their aircraft. Could save you from some major hassle down the line.

Edit: By serial number, no AFM required by TCDS until the later 180J models which must be around '74 or '75. That's the way I read it anyway.

From TCDS:

NOTE 1.
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. This equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on.

Nope, you didn't read the WHOLE "Applicable to all models" section....the EARLIEST 180s also require an AFM.

MTV

gbflyer wrote:

NimpoCub wrote:Lots of folks tossing around their interpretation of the "rules".
Why not go direct to the folks who make/enforce those rules & ASK 'em? Even get them to post the chapter/verse of what's needed/not.

I think the frustration is which interpretation would you trust? Your IA? Local FSDO? Regional office? Oklahoma City? You'd get 3 different answers from 10 different people. Then you might still get busted. "So and so in OKC said it was OK, Mister Inspector". Really?

I'm baffled by what "interpretation" you folks are discussing. READ the TCDS for your airplane. It will specifically tell you if an AFM is required for your airplane. If it is, it is. If it's exempt by serial number, it's not. If the airplane was manufactured after March of 1979, then the AFM data is incorporated into the Pilot Operating Handbook (which is DIFFERENT than an "owners manual" in earlier airplanes), and then THAT POH must be in the aircraft at all times for flight....BECAUSE it includes the AFM data, which according to FAR 91.9, must be in the aircraft at all times for flight.

It isn't that complex, folks.

By the way, I agree that according to the TCDS, the E model 182 would appear to not require an AFM. The question then is, does it have a POH, and if so, does the opening page state that that document must be in the plane at all times?

MTV

MTV has the right slant on the is, the TC does mention that you have to have something, what is a bit hazy. Well hazy means your busted until you prove them wrong. I've been to washington at the FAA meeting with the General Consul. They can't even read their own definitions section of the FAR's. So the best suggestion yet, call Cessna Customer Service, ask how to get a copy. The manufacturer is responsible for maintaing copies of these if they exist. Since it would most likely resemble what they did for the Birddog, they should sell it rather cheaply. So once having that then scan and post it, then everybody can gain access to your philanthropy.

So you can enjoy an argument with a Fed or have paper that acts as a Fed repellant. In the case I went to DC for, the whole argument was over a registration document and how it was filled out. FAA seized the aircraft, actually criminally charged the pilot (making a mistake can be interpreted as falsifying) Cost him over $200K, lost the aircraft to the bank and ruined his business. Ultimately, the FAA was wrong, they had to pay some of the expenses, but not all. They are a safety agency, so you cannot sue them over mistakes, they have immunity. So go ahead and poke that creature with a stick and find out how good it comes out for you. The FAA uses the DEA to enforce it criminal actions, you can sue them using a Bivens action, but you have a poor chance of prevailing.

mtv wrote:...according to the TCDS, the E model 182 would appear to not require an AFM. The question then is, does it have a POH, and if so, does the opening page state that that document must be in the plane at all times?MTV

No. It has an "Owner Manual". It has no mention I can find between its covers that mandates its presence in the airplane. It's always there anyway, for common sense, DA calcs, and reading material on those long trips over the desert. Cessna also informed me it should go with the plane as well.