Once and Future,

No arguements there at all. My point, however, was directed more at a very recent accident. The NTSB may offer a more accurate basis from which to make statements.

I've known a few folks who we all knew danced on the edge regularly. Frankly, with those folks, everyone knew the problem well in advance of the NTSB report.

I sincerely hope that if I screw up in an airplane, the NTSB will figure out what I did wrong, and publish that information. Unfortunately, that's not always been the case in some accidents I've seen, but it's the best starting point we've got.

Any accident where we don't learn SOMETHING is a true tragedy, in my opinion.

But, there's a difference between "learning" and "speculating".

MTV

Hey Bill, That is why Mike and I were on Subs. At least I got a warm shower once a week.

Tim

Tim:
Weren't you a tail or side gunner on a Sub -little drafty out there

mtv wrote:Once and Future,

No arguements there at all. My point, however, was directed more at a very recent accident. The NTSB may offer a more accurate basis from which to make statements.

I've known a few folks who we all knew danced on the edge regularly. Frankly, with those folks, everyone knew the problem well in advance of the NTSB report.

I sincerely hope that if I screw up in an airplane, the NTSB will figure out what I did wrong, and publish that information. Unfortunately, that's not always been the case in some accidents I've seen, but it's the best starting point we've got.

Any accident where we don't learn SOMETHING is a true tragedy, in my opinion.

But, there's a difference between "learning" and "speculating".

MTV

I've been doing a Annual and today we found the exhaust crack leaking from the end of the can.Someone in or about this fourme tell me what kind of exhaust is under the cowl when using a Texas Skyways 0-520 engine in 1963 Cessna 180 airframe. If this was the point of Ignition this may be where the orig of the fire (which is where I belive was going before Sparky went to ground) the other possibility is Carbon Monixe in heater system entering the cockpit .

Tim,

Nope, sorry, the submarine I was on didn't have one of those big pressure cookers to make all the water we'd have liked.

One wash basin of water a day. Our record was 82 days.

One shower.

MTV

mtv wrote:Tim,

Nope, sorry, the submarine I was on didn't have one of those big pressure cookers to make all the water we'd have liked.

One wash basin of water a day. Our record was 82 days.

One shower.

MTV

I can smell you from here. My fondest memory was Oct 68 geting underway for a 60 day Pearl to Pearl. The Hong Kong Flue was big on the mainland but just getting to the west coast. We should of not have had a problem but Waterson MM2 just got in from 20 days leave in Delaware for his mariage.

Two days out he starts in with the squirts and puchin. Within a week 83 out of 110 of us had the same. Folks standin watch in engineering spaces shitin in a bucket. Planesman puchin in #10 cans while trying to keep depth controle. One of the cooks did not get sick and he would fry shrimp just to piss us off. And you have agood idea where we were.

I had the squirts for 9 days. My but was so sore that I could not have put a dent in a ripe banana.

60 days turned into 86 days.

Tim

Mr. Brown is entitled to his opinion which appears to be based in his own experiences with Imeson...but this does not appear to be connected to weather from all I have seen and read and his press quote seems quite superfluous.

This is what bugged me about the remark. Not only was he dissing Sparky (people do this all the time to make themselves look superior), but he was doing so egregiously. Speculating on the cause is one thing. Jumping to the conclusion about pilot error is another thing entirely, even if the odds are with pilot error as a general rule. With Sparky, especially, pilot error should not be the first conclusion.

As for pushing envelopes, this is how humans function in all of life (think a kid taking his first steps). If we weren't programmed to push the envelope, we would be just another species of ape. Granted, most of our pushes are not potentially life-threatening, but some by their very nature have to be. Sparky pushed the envelope in a calculated way (think Chuck Yeager and the sound barrier), which is the only smart way to push potentially life-threatening envelopes. He thus learned things that he could teach the rest of us, and we have all benefitted enormously. Pushing the envelope is not in and of itself a sin; it's how it's done that's important.

In any case, it doesn't even sound like this had anything to do with envelope pushing, either. From what I've heard so far, this may fall into the category of "when you're number is up it's up", more popularly know as s*** happens and sometimes no amount of competence or planning can save you. I'm thinking of a friend who was T-boned at a stoplight. He couldn't do a darn thing about it, nowhere to go, it all happened too fast.

Judy

This was posted on the AOPA Board. I asked the writer, Marc Lee, for his permission to crosspost it here - good thoughts I felt, and worth sharing:

Rest In Peace, Sparky.

Having just flown over a large chunk of Wyoming and all of Utah, I had a certain affinity to this story. Although "Mountain Flying" as a technique or topic does not really apply here, based on the terrain in the photo, the point is a man died in an airplane crash and that disturbs me to the soul.

Facts and conjecture aside, I stand amazed at the photos published here showing the crash site. Isn't it amazing that an airplane- with all it's instruments and power and technology and magic- looks like only a small pile of debris once it's crashed? Just a small disturbance on the land. Not even a large crater. Imagine that spot- waiting for the crashing airplane, the grass almost looking up and wincing at what was to come. Yet, afterward it is only a few armfuls of charred nothing. A pile that could be hauled off in a pickup truck and forgotten. The dirt will heal and the grass will re-grow. The landscape will be unchanged

Having flown the mighty Cessna 180 (and it is mighty standing next to it with its big, square tail and its throaty engine), it seems so formidable. "Now this is what I'd want to be flying in the mountains," is what some pilot says while grabbing the strut and climbing into the considerable mount- a Jeep of the skies. It just always felt so invincible.

Now, as we think about whatever happened to Mr Imeson, I bet most of us look at that pile and think, "how could we keep this from happening to us?" And that is Sparky's legacy. It doesn't matter if he was hypoxic or suffered a stroke or had a fire or made a critical lapse in judgement at that moment. What we will always remember- and should never forget- is that he stood as a monument to safety and to the hazards involved in flying around those big mounds of rock and dirt we call "mountains."

So rest in peace Mr. Imeson. I have read the words in your books and I recite them every time I'm in those mountains. I won't remember the small pile of meaningless debris left as a reminder from your crash, but rather, the lessons you taught and the dedication you gave to aviation. "Watch that downdraft," "Where is that wind coming over that ridge?," "How wide is this canyon." Those are the words I'll think of each time the craggy rocks stretch their menacing fingers at an airplane I'm flying.

That and I'll remember that you died doing what you truly loved. That even another airplane crash 2 years before couldn't stop you. I'll remember your love affair with the sky and I'll know that you were one of us.
__________________
Marc C. Lee
PP-SEL
Tailwheel
KSNA- John Wayne Airport, O.C., CA

Report this postReply with quote Re: Looks Like Sparky is Missing
by judypilot » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:18 am

Mr. Brown is entitled to his opinion which appears to be based in his own experiences with Imeson...but this does not appear to be connected to weather from all I have seen and read and his press quote seems quite superfluous.

This is what bugged me about the remark. Not only was he dissing Sparky (people do this all the time to make themselves look superior), but he was doing so egregiously. Speculating on the cause is one thing. Jumping to the conclusion about pilot error is another thing entirely, even if the odds are with pilot error as a general rule. With Sparky, especially, pilot error should not be the first conclusion.

As for pushing envelopes, this is how humans function in all of life (think a kid taking his first steps). If we weren't programmed to push the envelope, we would be just another species of ape. Granted, most of our pushes are not potentially life-threatening, but some by their very nature have to be. Sparky pushed the envelope in a calculated way (think Chuck Yeager and the sound barrier), which is the only smart way to push potentially life-threatening envelopes. He thus learned things that he could teach the rest of us, and we have all benefitted enormously. Pushing the envelope is not in and of itself a sin; it's how it's done that's important.

In any case, it doesn't even sound like this had anything to do with envelope pushing, either. From what I've heard so far, this may fall into the category of "when you're number is up it's up", more popularly know as s*** happens and sometimes no amount of competence or planning can save you. I'm thinking of a friend who was T-boned at a stoplight. He couldn't do a darn thing about it, nowhere to go, it all happened too fast.

JudyJudy Parrishjudypilot

Posts: 5
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Jeff has witnessed Sparky and his flying habits over a very long period. He is entitled to his opinion and he is polite enough not to list the extent of them. He doesn't need to look superior, he in going home tonight and have dinner with his family, someone else isn't. You guys and gals need to look at the BIG picture and not stay focused on the legend. You made the statement "With Sparky, especially, pilot error should not be the first conclusion",,, That is your conclusion, which comment is worse, his or yours? You say " Sparky pushed the envelope in a calculated way" Are you saying that taking a Cessna 180 up to 24,000 feet without O2 is prudent? Or safe? or even sets a good example for every other pilot that admires his aviation skills? I can go on and on but you should see my drift by now. Let the NTSB do their thing and hopefully they will come to some kind of resolution. The problem is Sparky's plane wasn't found for about 41 hours... Plenty of time for ice to melt. Since his last crash he preached that SPOT was a life saver and we all need to use one. As far as we know he didn't use a SPOT for his trip up to 24,000 and his last flight either. It is the " do as I say not as I do " syndrome. I am open to any and all facts that show otherwise....

Tailwinds.

Ben
Jackson Hole Wy.

Tough to tell who's saying what in this thread with all the unformatted copied text.

Please use the [ quote ] he/she said this [/ quote ] bbcode where necessary. Many times I've been confused about whose words are whose.

It's easy:

Either Reply with a Quote by clicking the button,

Or highlight the text in question and click the Quote button in the toolbar above the post editing area.

Thanks.

Quotes from other forums? This is equivelent to to much paperwork and waisting trees. I guess it is OK

Well maybe not.

Tim

Stol wrote:Jeff has witnessed Sparky and his flying habits over a very long period. He is entitled to his opinion and he is polite enough not to list the extent of them. He doesn't need to look superior, he in going home tonight and have dinner with his family, someone else isn't. You guys and gals need to look at the BIG picture and not stay focused on the legend. You made the statement "With Sparky, especially, pilot error should not be the first conclusion",,, That is your conclusion, which comment is worse, his or yours? You say " Sparky pushed the envelope in a calculated way" Are you saying that taking a Cessna 180 up to 24,000 feet without O2 is prudent? Or safe? or even sets a good example for every other pilot that admires his aviation skills? I can go on and on but you should see my drift by now. Let the NTSB do their thing and hopefully they will come to some kind of resolution. The problem is Sparky's plane wasn't found for about 41 hours... Plenty of time for ice to melt. Since his last crash he preached that SPOT was a life saver and we all need to use one. As far as we know he didn't use a SPOT for his trip up to 24,000 and his last flight either. It is the " do as I say not as I do " syndrome. I am open to any and all facts that show otherwise....

Tailwinds.

Ben
Jackson Hole Wy.

Hey Zane ~ I hope I did this quote thing right this time? Because I sincerely don't want any ambiguity associated with what is about to be my response to "Ben":

Just stop. Yes, I see your drift - and it's inappropriate, disrespectful and rude to a man who is now dead. And when the NTSB *is* done with its investigation and the report comes out? Tell you what Ben, as I've stated before, Sparky would be the first person to want the facts out and if he did anything reckless or not "prudent" he would want lessons learned from that. And should that be the official conclusion? I'll come on here and say "my bad" that I misjudged this good, kind, generous man who lived his life dedicated to pilot education and safety in the realm of mountain flying. Yep - I'll be the first one out here going, how naive could I have been. And a few others will have to be right behind me I guess ~ because it seems I'm not alone in my thinking.

But I'll tell you what else Ben ... if you and Mr. Brown are wrong? If it's determined that there was a medical or mechanical reason for what happened either on Sunday's flight, or tragically on Tuesday? That Sparky Imeson was the pilot's pilot and did all he possibly could to fly his plane to the very end under circumstances beyond his control?

You best better believe I'm going to be here looking for sincere apologies to the man's memory and reputation for the implications of the pure conjecture about what happened on Tuesday that you two have - in my opinion - cruelly placed into the public record here and in Mr. Brown's case, the media.

But for some reason, I don't think I should hold my breath.

Like I said before - if you can't say something nice under these circumstances? Be quiet out of respect for the man.

I'm done.

Sorry Zane,, the last format had a Quote box on the bottom when I posted, This new set up is still greek to me.

Stol wrote:Are you saying that taking a Cessna 180 up to 24,000 feet without O2 is prudent? Or safe?

I agree with you. I don't think that going up to 24,000 feet without oxygen is prudent or safe. Sparky would agree with you too. Take a look at what he wrote on his website about oxygen and hypoxia. He explains it very well.

What makes you think Sparky went to 24,000 feet with out oxygen? Not that I necessarily believe everything I see in the news but I did read a news story that says Sparky filed a flight plan that would have taken him up to 22,000, that he ended up at 24,000, that he was not communicating with ATC and that he may have suffered from hypoxia. The news story I read did not address whether or not he had oxygen. I have not seen anyone that seems to have actual first hand knowledge state if he had oxygen or not.

Prepared Pilot wrote:

Stol wrote:Are you saying that taking a Cessna 180 up to 24,000 feet without O2 is prudent? Or safe?

I agree with you. I don't think that going up to 24,000 feet without oxygen is prudent or safe. Sparky would agree with you too. Take a look at what he wrote on his website about oxygen and hypoxia. He explains it very well.

What makes you think Sparky went to 24,000 feet with out oxygen? Not that I necessarily believe everything I see in the news but I did read a news story that says Sparky filed a flight plan that would have taken him up to 22,000, that he ended up at 24,000, that he was not communicating with ATC and that he may have suffered from hypoxia. The news story I read did not address whether or not he had oxygen. I have not seen anyone that seems to have actual first hand knowledge state if he had oxygen or not.

I believe Sparky told me he had a portable Oxygen system -Scott I believe that hung over the back of the seat. I presume everyone has heard of Services for Sparky Fri. 130 pm in Helena . Wake or reception at the airport afterwords. I know he had a hanger (shared) where he kept the 180 > he told me he was going to give up hanger and move his airplane closer to Home on east side of Helena. There is a little private strip couple of miles from his new house. I had made arrangement's to grade out strip on Sparky's place after he talked to his neighbors . I also got this from another 180 driver . http://www.helenair.com/articles/2009/0 ... _crash.txt
Blue Skies and Tailwinds .

Bill Reid

Ben,

I don't think you and I are seeing things differently. My post was, in essence, the same request you made--let the NTSB do its thing. And you are reading hero worship into my post that isn't there. I was merely saying that pushing the envelope, which Mr. Brown was criticizing Sparky for, is not inherently reckless and in fact is how we learn. It's how the envelope is pushed that matters. Mr. Brown made a statement that didn't make sense in light of Sparky's career and contributions and that seemed to be jumping to conclusions. Not jumping to conclusions is something neither of us appears to want, which makes it puzzling that you are so stoutly defending Mr. Brown.

Judy

judypilot wrote:Ben,

I don't think you and I are seeing things differently. My post was, in essence, the same request you made--let the NTSB do its thing. And you are reading hero worship into my post that isn't there. I was merely saying that pushing the envelope, which Mr. Brown was criticizing Sparky for, is not inherently reckless and in fact is how we learn. It's how the envelope is pushed that matters. Mr. Brown made a statement that didn't make sense in light of Sparky's career and contributions and that seemed to be jumping to conclusions. Not jumping to conclusions is something neither of us appears to want, which makes it puzzling that you are so stoutly defending Mr. Brown.

Judy

Sparky Imeson tragically died on March 17, 2009. The funeral will be held on March 27 at St. Paul's United Methodist Church in Helena, MT. Reception will follow immediately after at the Helena Regional Airport beginning at 2:45 pm.

The family suggests any memorial donations be made in Sparky's name to the Shriners Hospitals for Children if desired. Sparky's wife, Siew Hwa, will begin filling any outstanding orders as soon as possible, and your patience is appreciated.

To offer condolences to Sparky's family, or to share your memories and thoughts, please visit http://www.mem.com and search for "Sparky Imeson".

As Sparky told us, "happiness is an airplane on a clear day - and the time to go flying.”

I added this to Sparky's Memorial page

Sparky has been a beacon of light for all who aspire to lift there eyes to the heavens . I will always remember his wit and humor . Daily he would send me jokes or political readings . I flew with him when he was in Southern California and we had very good time -he was such a teacher . Always on the alert for trouble while in flight. We talked just a day or so before his last flight ,I could check my cell phone records. I believe he was going to Bozeman for a weapons permit . I was supposed to be seeing him early March at the Montana Aviation Expo and then returning to Helena to work on his Cessna 180.
Weather prevented me from making that trip.I'm a fair weather flier . Sparky and I talked for hours about his new Cessna 180 (He'd had several before )
how we could improve it's performance. He was a very good friend and will be missed by all of the Pilots everywhere. He respected our Country and those who served in the Military - he was a great role model for all generations.Once while I was hospitalized he called to wish me speedy recovery . I have Mountain Flying Bible -Revised with his " Bill , Praying for your speedy recovery. Wishing you blue skies, tailwinds and safe flying ! Sparky" here at my side and in my flight bag where ever I fly.
Blue Skies and Tailwinds to my Friend Sparky Imeson - your in a better place now looking down us pilots . Thank you for the wonderful experience.

Love Always Bill Reid

182 STOL driver wrote:The funeral will be held on March 27 at St. Paul's United Methodist Church in Helena, MT. Reception will follow immediately after at the Helena Regional Airport beginning at 2:45 pm.

There is an error of omission in those times. The funeral will be held at the church starting at 1:30 pm. The reception at the airport will start immediately after the funeral service at about 2:45pm.

Prepared Pilot wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:The funeral will be held on March 27 at St. Paul's United Methodist Church in Helena, MT. Reception will follow immediately after at the Helena Regional Airport beginning at 2:45 pm.

There is an error of omission in those times. The funeral will be held at the church starting at 1:30 pm. The reception at the airport will start immediately after the funeral service at about 2:45pm.

I would like to Thank everyone for there patience during this most troubling time. If you can make Helena, Mont. for the services it would be very good so come one come all to pay our respects to a man who was /Is the spirit of the Back Country pilots best . I'll be in Salt Lake Thursday night with LZ Helena about 9-10 Friday morning. Weather looks VFR but cold~~~ YMMV. It's forecast for cold so dress accord ling . Let's make this a big turn out for Sparky and his Family .
Thanks

Bill Reid

The NTSB released their preliminary report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_i ... 5429&key=1