I just ran across this article about the Loran being phased out. Too bad for me since I just put in an Apollo 618c for a backup to the GPS. Thank you Mr. Obama.

http://www.mgn.com/news/dailystorydetai ... ryid=10586

Cough... Choke...

You did what?????????

Gump

Hey I have one for sale, know anyone who's looking to buy????

Damn, I guess I should have had it up on ebay sooner....

Anyway, I took read this the other day in AOPA e-pilot:


Coast Guard sounds death knell for loran-C

By Sarah Brown

The U.S. Coast Guard gave notice Jan. 7 that it will start decommissioning the long range navigation (loran-C) system beginning Feb. 8.

All loran stations will cease transmission by Oct. 1, according to the notice. While loran-C is not now widely used for navigation, government and independent agencies have recommended using an enhanced version of it, eLoran, as a national backup system for GPS. The termination of loran will leave the country without a single national backup system in the event of a GPS outage.

“Recent reports have shown that the constellation of satellites is vulnerable to outages and service disruptions,” said Craig Spence, AOPA vice president of operations and international affairs. “AOPA has long cautioned against decommissioning loran before a separate navigation system is established as a backup.”

The vulnerability of satellite coverage was made clear in 2007, when a scheduled Navy training exercise in the Port of San Diego unintentionally jammed GPS signals, shutting down satellite-based navigation, tracking, and cell phone services. Outages could become more frequent as older satellites reach the end of their operational life: A Government Accountability Office (GAO) report released in 2009 concluded that many of the older satellites in use could stop working faster than they can be replenished, possibly resulting in reductions in service as early as this year.

In the event of a loss of GPS-based services, the Coast Guard says that the Department of Transportation (DOT) has determined that sufficient alternative navigation aids currently exist and that loran is not needed. However, a 2006 Independent Assessment Team (IAT) report commissioned by the DOT and Department of Homeland Security (DHS) found that “eLoran is the only cost-effective backup for national needs … . It is a seamless backup, and its use will deter threats to U.S. national and economic security by disrupting (jamming) GPS reception.” IAT reiterated its support of eLoran in 2009.

The DOT and DHS jointly recommended in 2007 that eLoran be the national backup for GPS, and DHS formally announced in February 2008 its intention to implement eLoran as a national positioning, navigation, and timing system to complement GPS in the event of an outage or disruption in service.

Loran-C has been periodically slashed from budgets over the past several years, but it has always been restored pending a decision on what system will be in place if satellite services are disrupted. Decommissioning loran-C would eliminate the infrastructure upon which a potential eLoran system would rely.

The 2010 Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act, signed into law in October 2009, allows for the termination of the system subject to the Coast Guard certifying that termination of the signal will not adversely impact the safety of maritime navigation and DHS certifying that the infrastructure is not needed as a backup to GPS or to meet any other federal navigation requirement. The Coast Guard determined that those certifications were made.

According to the Office of Management and Budget, shutting down loran-C will save $36 million in fiscal 2010 and $190 million over five years.

I linked mine to a CDI for a backup to the GPS. The whole thing installed was about $600. I might be in "survivalist" mode but if anyone launches anything, all GPS signals will stop. Guess it's back to the chart.

I liked that they don't use a "Line of Sight" signal. Here is part of an article about Lorans:

"On land, where buildings and mountains block GPS signals, LORAN
travels along the earth’s surface, deep into city centres, even into
buildings and – for aviation – down into the valleys, to ground level. And
like GPS, LORAN’s a complete navigation and timing system"

CALLING ALL PILOTS- they are telling us now but let's not forget that we can tell them this fall with our VOTE.

Wait a minute, the same guys that are moaning and groaning about the deficit are now against this particular cutback? The eventual decommissioning has been in the works for a decade, they were just waiting for full GPS operational capability.

Before you bemoan the demise of the LORAN system, you need to have USED that system in an airplane, particularly in a marginal coverage area. It just plain sucks, at best. The problem with LORAN is that it will tell you that you're right THERE, when in fact, you're 30 miles (yes, you read that right: Miles) away from that point. I was so friggin happy when we got the first GPS I couldn't believe it, cause that LORAN unit in the airplane hadn't been used in over a year. POS.

Dismantling the LORAN system is LONG overdue, and will save millions of dollars from a system that NOBODY uses.

Want a backup? Use a VOR. So far, at least, the FAA hasn't been decommissioning too many of them YET. They will, no doubt. That's what most folks did before LORAN came along, and LORAN was very much a flash in the pan.

I've told AOPA for years that they should encourage the administration to shut that system down. A current sectional chart is so much better for navigation that it ain't even funny.

MTV

Just because someone would like to reduce government spending does not mean that they want to also reduce national security!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Loran system has been kept around for so long only beacause it is a good backup for the gps system. China, South Korea, Iran, or any other nation with enough firepower could take out a few satellites leaving our country vulnerable, I hope everyone agrees that would be bad.

I was leaving the Los Angeles area one time when my trusty handheld GPS Crapped out and lost signal right in the middle of the nastiest airspace mess that I have ever been in.

Long story short I fired up the old flybuddy Loran and along with the Terminal Area Chart I was able to escape the area without busting any airspace.

Later I figured out that my old Narco radio was causing interference with the gps signal. I got rid of it and haven't had a problem since.

Also just in case the Loran system survives. you can interchange the 618 with an Apollo 800 Flybuddy.
You can pick them up cheap and have a database also (still no moving map).

In my Panel I have 2 GPS's, one has Terrain the other has WX weather and XM radio. An old Michels MX300 G that has a VOR and Glideslope LED readout in the face. The Loran is hooked to a CDI. I don't need the Loran or VOR in there as long as the GPS's are working but it is nice to know all my bases are covered. The Loran was put in for backup, not everyday navigating. I will admit that if you have a GPS in your plane you probably won't ever even look at the loran (or VOR). I didn't know the Loran was that inaccurate because everything I had read said +/- 8 miles. If they install the Loran A system it is supposed to be +/- 8 Meters. I can replace my 618c Loran with an Apollo 360 GPS by just changing the antenna. All the wiring is the same and I will still be able to use the CDI but I liked having three completely separate modes of navigation in the plane (plus it filled in the last two holes in the panel ).

MTV Wrote: "will save millions of dollars from a system that NOBODY uses." The Loran system costs 35 Million a year and consists of 18 Transmitters in the lower 48 and 6 in Alaska. That isn't a lot of money when you consider a FAA Christmas party cost 5 Million. Maybe we could save money somewhere else? I got this off the web, Ten most ridiculous uses of our money.

10. A $427,824 research grant to design better video games for senior citizens based on their unique “game-play needs”.

9. Funding of a Dartmouth College study involving “sexual arousal in anesthetized female rats” ($9,870).

8. Funding of a $168,300 SBA loan to the Escape Massage parlor in Midlothian, VA.

7. Funding a $447,492 Univ. of North Carolina study on the development and use of “African American English” amongst 70 adolescents.

6. $10,346 for a heating and cooling company to provide “escort services” for other companies performing a laser scanning survey at a courthouse in Honolulu, Hawaii.

5. An academic study comparing outcomes of the concurrent and separate use of malt liquor and marijuana ($389,357).

4. A $225,000 study at Ohio State University on the relative and combined impacts of air pollution and a high fat diet on obesity development.

3. A $712,883 research grant to develop “machine-generated humor“. Project will design artificially intelligent “comedic performance agents”, and will “deploy them both on and off-line for the enjoyment and illumination of everyday citizens”.

2. A $54 million project to relocate one bridge for the Napa Valley Wine Train (!) in order to mitigate the possible impact of a “100 year storm event”.

And the number one most ridiculous use of stimulus funds…

1. $9.3 million (!) to fund the design and development of a “coordinated colony of robotic bees“!

We looked at a job at the Ketchikan LORAN station last Spring...didn't get it. Long story short, it is (was) a manned station and the job was upgrading to a state - of - the - art septic system...secondary treatment...the works. Seems like there are 9 or 10 Coast Guard Personnel there full time. The project tallied up to around $400K if memory serves. The job was completed as far as I know. In a swift stroke of political irony, looks like the whole program just went down the shitter!!!

gb

Jaerl,

Use the LORAN system, then report back. By the way, LORAN A is NOT coming back and your LORAN C receiver wouldn't function in that system anyway. It's a much shorter range system by the way.

I don't buy your stated cost of the LORAN C system. There is a LORAN C station on Attu Island, for example. Got any idea what it costs to ship supplies and Coasties out there, to keep the diesel generators going out there, etc, etc??? Note that just because a CG C-130 flies stuff out there, thus dissappearing the cost from direct operating costs, doesn't mean it didn't cost a lot. If you think the government can support all those stations for that amount of money a year, you need to look a little closer at government spending. Does this cost estimate include the cost of all the Coasties that work on these stations, their food, supplies, etc, etc??

If you base your opinion of the appropriatness of government cost savings on all the stupid stuff that Congress funds as pork, perhaps you should run for Congress.... Personally, I think anywhere we can save money on a virtually unused system we should. Pointing out all the BS stuff Congress and the administration pisses away money on is a red herring. So what? Savings are savings.

Let's say the North Koreans get lucky and zap a few satellites (remember that so far these guys haven't been able to hit much of anything with a missile). There isn't an airliner in the US, I'm betting, that has a LORAN C receiver installed. They are going to revert back to VOR nav, NOT to LORAN. So, who precisely WOULD use LORAN? UPS?? Actually, maybe a few fishing boats, unless they've dumped their LORAN receivers over the side and replaced with GPS. And, yes, maybe a few pilots of old beater airplanes with panels that haven't been upgraded in twenty years.

Me, if the GPS system were to go tits up, I'll just drag out a sectional and navigate that way. If you bet your pilot certificate on LORAN C accuracy keeping you out of airspace that could get you violated, good luck.

I'll give em an atta boy for finally having the guts to get rid of a dinosaur.

MTV

I'm with Gump on this. I thought Loran was a way gone option anyhow, and I would not have anticipated this many fans. In fact the ADF is now a goner (way overdue) and I almost stripped out my VOR's and went full GPS, all in the interest simplicity and staying just a little bit further away from those tree tops.

Besides, if the GPS system gets nailed due to aggressions my criteria for a destination may not rely on it anyhow.

You got that shit right. If the GPS system goes down because of enemy missile fire. Ain't none of us gonna be navigating the LA Basin worrying about busting airspace.

On a good day Loran was nothing but a boat anchor in aviation applications. When you needed it most, eg. bad weather, is when it would fail on you. Once GPS came out, everything from VOR, ADF, RNAV, you name it, was immediately antique, and I know I have absolutely no desire to ever go back to any of it.

I spent too many hours creeping around in the fog, snow and dark trying to find airstrips and my way home with nothing but Mark I eyeballs and a stop watch. Loran was most times worse than nothing because it would lie to you. GPS on the other hand... Magic.

Gump

SE6601KF wrote:
The Loran system has been kept around for so long only beacause it is a good backup for the gps system.



Also just in case the Loran system survives. you can interchange the 618 with an Apollo 800 Flybuddy.
You can pick them up cheap and have a database also (still no moving map).

Loran hasn't been a backup to GPS for at least 10 years. You can't buy a new one, you can't get a database for one, you don't have a moving map. Loran is nothing more than a paper weight. I too have used Loran out here in the West. Horrible piece of crap. You also cannot take out the GPS system by blasting a satellite. You would have to take out at least 8-10 before you even started to notice a degradation. No rogue state even has the capability to wipe out the GPS system.

^^^^ Correct. The "loss of GPS" that is spoken of is civilian GPS being disabled by our own government or military to prevent GPS-based nav systems on rogue ordinance from functioning.

News story this week said that China is about a third of the way toward deploying its own GPS constellation of 30-odd satellites. Soon ours won't be the only one out there for aspiring "rogue nations" to try to hack.

I just ran across this article about the Loran being phased out. Too bad for me since I just put in an Apollo 618c for a backup to the GPS. Thank you Mr. Obama.

Too bad I didn't know you wanted one, I pulled my Loran out a couple of years ago. They are pretty useless in the Pacifc NW anyway.

Saving Millions of Dollars of tax payers money sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Interesting list of projects Jaerl.

I don't think any US Congressman or Senator does not fight for their share of funding, also known as pork by residents of other states or districts.

Just FYI in 2005 Utah received $1.61 in Federal funding for every $1.00 dollar of Federal tax paid. I am sure the difference is well justified.

TD

Oops, mis-spoke. Utah only received $1.27 per $1.00 Tax paid. I was looking at the wrong table.

Now wait just a minute. I have a loran reciever (never turned it on). We need more loran (until I sell my unit that is)!

Didn't know about China. Europe is launching a GPS system as well.

I know they've talked about phasing out the VOR stations for a long time. Might make more sense to just upgrade those if they're really concerned about having a backup but I think aviation for the most part would grind to a halt if GPS systems went away... cept maybe us little guys that' know how to fly low and slow enough to see what's outside the window.