DON'T give up yet....this has not been settled yet. This thread has become boring in the last 24hrs

My fool proof navigation system. No gadgets needed.

When I see the big white mountain I'm heading west.


When I see the Yakima River canyon I'm headed south.


When I see wind mills I'm headed east.


and when I see jagged white mountains I'm headed north.

I don't know, your compass isn't reading North???

I have been away a few days buying 8 Tracks to back up my iPod so I am safe if the Chinese blow it up. Anyone make and 8 Track deck anymore?

What is this ' 8 track ' thing you speak of ?

Oh. you meant those funny looking tape holder thingies that when removed from the player left 3/4 of the tape wound up around the drive wheel inside that damn trap door? ??????

Naw, I dont remember them.

Here we go again, Every country in the northern hemisphere is upgrading to eLoran except us and Canada. Canada is throwing in the towel because a lot of their Loran Chains are dependent on our transmitters. As for new loran equipment, Megapulse Inc. in Billerica, Mass., manufactures integrated GPS/LORAN equipment. I am sure there are more and would have been more if the eLoran upgrade would have been finished.

Problem I have is that 93% of the people polled were in favor of keeping the system and then Obama pulled the plug. Didn't we use to live in Democracy? If you only read one of these post read this one.

This Lady sums it all up pretty well:


Senator Susan Collins, Republican, Maine:
Mr. President, I rise in opposition to the amendment offered by the Senator from Arizona.

Let me start with some background on the LORAN system since it may not be familiar to many of our colleagues. This is a radio navigation system with 24 land-based transmitters which are operated by the Coast Guard that can be used to determine the location and speed of the receiver. Some mariners and aviators use the current system, which is known as LORAN-C, for navigation, while others have switched to the GPS system. An upgraded LORAN system, which is known as eLORAN, would use LORAN-C transmitting stations as its foundation and it would serve as a backup to GPS as well as a primary navigational tool.

This infrastructure would provide the foundation that is necessary to have a backup for the GPS. If we abandon the LORAN-C system, as Senator McCain has advocated, we would lose the considerable investment of $160 million we have already made to deploy the eLORAN system, and this system is one that a joint Department of Homeland Security and Department of Transportation assessment team has recommended as the backup for GPS.

Why do we need a backup for GPS? The fact is GPS is vulnerable to atmospheric interference and jamming. A loss of the GPS signal for even a short duration and in an isolated region would adversely affect cell phone coverage, the national power grid, and air traffic.

Our nation needs a reliable backup. This isn't just my opinion. This is the considered opinion of an independent assessment team that just filed its final report in January of this year. One of the previous speakers referred to a GAO report that is over 25 years old. I am talking about an assessment that was just completed in January of this year. DHS and the Department of Transportation jointly commissioned an assessment team that included a diverse group of senior decisionmakers and experts from government, academia, and industry. This team reviewed 40 previous reports, interviewed the key stakeholders, industry representatives, and other experts, and received 980 comments on what should be done, and 93 percent of those comments were in favor of maintaining the LORAN system — 93 percent.

Listen to who some of the commentators were. Sprint Nextel, which is the supplier of critical communications capabilities, and the Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration both stated that they currently use the LORAN system and that they support upgrading to eLoran as a backup and complement to the GPS system. The Department of Energy moves controlled nuclear material around the country and uses LORAN-C as "an active and robust supplement to GPS.'' This is the Department of Energy's Nuclear Security Administration telling us it needs and relies on the LORAN-C system. They describe it as an active and robust supplement to GPS. The Department of Energy uses LORAN-C to provide location information on nuclear material in the event of blocked visibility, solar storms, and intentional jamming of the GPS system.

In January of this year, when the team released its report, it unanimously concluded that the eLORAN should serve as the national backup system for GPS and that the LORAN-C infrastructure should be maintained until we have full deployment of the eLoran.

Think what we are doing if this amendment passes. What we are proposing is to discontinue a system that is being relied upon by the Department of Energy and countless other users. That is why this independent assessment team — this isn't my opinion, this is the independent assessment team's conclusion — says we must maintain the current system until we have fully transitioned to the eLORAN system, which will be the backup for GPS. What is being proposed by this amendment is to discontinue the LORAN-C system prior to having a backup in place. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, I would emphasize that this was a unanimous conclusion of the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Transportation's independent assessment team as of January of this year. It is the newest assessment we have. It is the most complete review that has ever been done.

The fact is, the weaknesses in the GPS system are well known. A GAO report published in May raised serious concerns regarding the near- and long-term health and reliability of the GPS network, noting that there is a high risk — that is GAO's assessment — that the Air Force will not be able to meet its schedule for the deployment of GPS satellites. The Department of Defense predicts that over the next several years, many of the older satellites will reach the end of their operational life faster than they will be able to be replaced.

A Wall Street Journal article in June concluded that the GPS satellite system — the article cited new interference problems with the signals being transmitted by recently launched GPS satellites, raising additional serious concerns about the timeline for the deployment of the next generation of GPS satellites.

The assessment team reported on a GPS interference incident in San Diego that lasted 3 hours. The GPS system is not failproof. It can be intentionally interfered with or it can stop operating due to atmospheric conditions.

The eLORAN would fulfill the requirement established in National Security Presidential Directive 39 for a backup to GPS. This is a modest investment of funds to make sure we do not experience a dangerous gap.

Another myth we keep hearing is that there hasn't been sufficient study into the issue of whether a backup is needed for the GPS system. In fact, as I have indicated, eLORAN has been exhaustively studied. The result of these successive scientific and budgetary analyses is that eLORAN represents the most cost-effective backup to GPS.

Again, that is not just my opinion. That is the unanimous conclusion of the independent assessment team that was established by the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Transportation.

I urge the defeat of the amendment.

I think the topic has been flogged to death. The facts are that Loran is scheduled to be decommissioned in the US. I don't anticipate a national protest arising that will postpone or prevent that. Another fact is that Loran is obsolete, as evidenced by the fact that major avionics manufacturers assessed the market potential and chose to discontinue development of new Loran devices years ago.

Some people still like using them, and that's certainly their prerogative until the transmitters are shut down. But whether one is pro or con about Loran, the facts remain the same. It's time to stop hoping for miracles (if you're pro) and time to stop trying to change the minds of the true believers (if you're con). Instead, let's return to topics like the kid we introduced to flying last week, or the fun flight we took over the weekend.

Eric

Again, I'm new here, and maybe I don't understand how this board works, but I don't understand why anyone would be surprised (or upset) to find dicussions about Loran in a thread whose title begins with the word "Loran". Odd...

I've spent a lot of time looking into this topic- I talked to the assistant head of NextGen at the FAA, AOPA, etc, and read all the reports I can find. Everything I learn convinces me even more that terminating this system is a REALLY bad idea. I stated the reasons why in previous posts and won't rehash them here, but Jaerl's post above is dead on.

There used to be a video floating around of the recent government testimony on Loran, and it's amazing how ignorant the Sec. of DHS is on the subject, even as she makes her decision. If it was fact based and there was an alternate plan presented, I'd be fine with it. But it's not, and they didn't. Your tax dollars down the drain.

Fun fact:
Annual operating cost for VOR system: $82M
+ Annual operating cost for ILS system: $86M
vs. Annual operating cost for Loran system: $36M
(As best I can tell- I'd be happy to have somebody correct me)

I agree,

This is a pertinent discussion as it affects all of us. (Pro or Con)

I happen to be pro but I can understand the other point of view.

I just had another thought about a backup to gps.

Don't know if it is possible or not but, what if...............

What about all of the cell towers around the country.
Maybe there could be a way to triangulate position from a few towers.
The cell companies already have them in place and they are being maintained all of the time anyway.

Someone would have to make some kind of nav receiver that could be carried around or mounted like a gps.

Again I don't know if that is possible or not.
Maybe someone here who is more knowledgeable about such things could chime in.

just a thought

Man, is there an echo in here?????



MTV

This is a good idea. I think the problem is that the range of the cell signal is so short that you can only ping a few towers fairly close together, and the "triangulation angle" is poor, so accuracy sucks.

Actually, loss of loran also potentially affects cell towers and all other parts of the telecommunications network too, as proper operation is dependent on dead acccurate timing. Today this comes from GPS, with loran as a backup. If loran goes away and something happens to GPS, even temporarily, there is a good chance of loss of service. If the GPS loss is widespread (solar flare), things get ugly real fast. eLoran was a major part of the national Position, Navigation and Timing plan. Now they've killed it without naming a replacement.

The company I work at has a need for this same level of precision timing for our equipment. Guess where we get it?
Hint: we have an antenna outside the building.

Good Gawwwd, imagine not having loran or gps....

people might actually have to know how to read a CHART....



Funny, I haven't even heard LORAN MENTIONED in the last, oh, 20 years.... nice to see people even remember what it is....

Just don't think this is the end of the aviation world..... my two cents' worth.

Honestly, it won't affect my flying much at all. But then I spend a lot more time looking out the window and a lot less time looking at clouds and gauges than some others who could be affected.

Yep........here we go again!!

58S- you LOVE this thread and can't stay away- admit it!

RDUStinson wrote:58S- you LOVE this thread and can't stay away- admit it!

I'm actually getting a big kick over it!! I'll admit!! It's been a really interesting thread. And glad some of the guys have kept there cool (unlike some of the other threads).

I'll also be honest with you all, I don't know jack about Loran! Mostly because I'm a fairly new pilot, so reading this info has been interesting. I've been spoiled with my Garmin 396, but I have my SL60 GPS if I need it. If that fails, I have a small portable GPS as my second backup. Or if all satellites go out or all three of my GPS's go to crap, I'm a pretty good navigator. I'm 100% confident I can find my way home or to the nearest airport.

Just poking fun!

The new GPS stuff is really cool. It's amazing what it can do, and I love my 296. But for me it's always a backup- I still plot waypoints on the chart and look for towns and railroad tracks. The capabilites of the new eLoran are almost as good and I'm disappointed they're not going forward with it.

After reading this site for almost a year before registering I knew full well that there were some characters her- that's part of what drew mw to it.

Have a great night!

RDUStinson wrote:After reading this site for almost a year before registering I knew full well that there were some characters her- that's part of what drew mw to it.

You ain't seen nothin' yet if you're impressed with this thread. Everybody in this one seems downright cordial. Nice work guys.

I already have a Loran C in the plane. Now I want to get a back up for it. How about an ADF for that purpose.

Will this thread ever go away. I posted so it will got back to the top.

I expect a thirteen paragraph responce from MTV with perfect spelling.

Tim

Hey, I flew to DTA yesterday using the Loran and I am still alive! I just like to live dangerously I guess.

Jerry