summarizing the above comments: Guys that understand and fly their airplanes at the bottom of the envelope love the VG's. Guys that like to fly the airplane just like before the mod, don't. Simple enough.
Tom

BINGO! Drum roll please.

My AOA indicator is in the seat of my pants! I donot think that it is a requirement to have an AOA with VGs. They are either effective or not! The AOAI is really just a crutch while you are developing the feeling in your butt!
My .02
As for being legal on the Pacer, if it was found that the placement was ineffective, then why pay for the mod! And do a permanent installation, just to take them off again. And if test showed favorable results two inches closer to the leading edge, then a one time field approval would make them legal for your plane only.
I have used VGs on Cessnas with and without the STOL kits and have found that they are most effective with a STOL kit installed. My .02
As for Pipers, I have zero experience with them.
You guys really got me to thinking though!

buck_justice wrote:My AOA indicator is in the seat of my pants! I donot think that it is a requirement to have an AOA with VGs. They are either effective or not! The AOAI is really just a crutch while you are developing the feeling in your butt!
My .02
As for being legal on the Pacer, if it was found that the placement was ineffective, then why pay for the mod! And do a permanent installation, just to take them off again. And if test showed favorable results two inches closer to the leading edge, then a one time field approval would make them legal for your plane only.
I have used VGs on Cessnas with and without the STOL kits and have found that they are most effective with a STOL kit installed. My .02
As for Pipers, I have zero experience with them.
You guys really got me to thinking though!

That's kind of my point. If you aren't going to follow the STC, then buy cheap VGs from spruce and go that route. No point in buying the expensive piece of paper for nothing.
I agree on the AOA.
You will like VGs on your piper. George Foreman guarantee. Haha.

flynbeekeeper wrote:summarizing the above comments: Guys that understand and fly their airplanes at the bottom of the envelope love the VG's. Guys that like to fly the airplane just like before the mod, don't. Simple enough.
Tom

Total bullshit. Learn to read.

MTV

flynbeekeeper wrote:summarizing the above comments: Guys that understand and fly their airplanes at the bottom of the envelope love the VG's. Guys that like to fly the airplane just like before the mod, don't. Simple enough.
Tom

ahhhh.... No.... Not a good summary at all.

Partially right but not completely.

Kurt

I have had micro VGs installed on two airplanes, one a Maule m-5-180 and the other was a Cessna 206. On the Maule the difference was amazing and very noticeable, the 206 not noticeable at all. I was working both airplanes, gross weight and short off-field strips.

My take away was that they are very make/model dependent, and you really won't know til you install them.

flynbeekeeper wrote:summarizing the above comments: Guys that understand and fly their airplanes at the bottom of the envelope love the VG's. Guys that like to fly the airplane just like before the mod, don't. Simple enough.
Tom

I think this is going to be a real delicate topic, so I will try to tread lightly. I must say that I agree to some extent what you are saying... Although I would re-frame it not so much as guys who "understand" their airplanes, but guys who are attune to perhaps a more modern style of flying.

I will pick on MTV, because we have a history of gentle ribbing and he knows that I truly respect his experience and often seek his telephone advice in the real world...

I think its important when you are looking at the modern landscape of "mods" to acknowledge that although airplanes fly the exact same as in the 70's, and are in fact the SAME airplanes as in the 70's, and in lots of cases were already considered OLD airplanes in the 70's, that things are not the same as in the 70's (80's or 90s)

Folks are doing things with these airplanes today that the (now) old timers, who were in their prime back in the 70's would never even have dreamed could be possible. All we have to do is stumble upon Youtube for 100 examples.

I flew the other day with a retired airline pilot. He made a point of telling me he had 30,000hrs flying. I thought wow, until we started the ground roll and I looked down to see his feet on the floor. In the same vein, flying many hours in a commercial 135 back country operation in the 80's might not net the same kind of experience as the arguably foolish young pilots trying to push the limits today. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, but Its important to acknowledge that there is indeed a difference in perception. My dad thinks Rock N' Roll is the Everly Brothers and the Kingston Trio, I thought it was the Police, and God knows what kind of shit my 2 year old is going to be cranking.

I digress. I am onboard with substantive evidence. In my pre-hospital medical world, we are all about the "evidence based approach." Show me why it works, don't just expect me to believe your theory... It was pointed out that there is no rear quantitative data on VGs with respect to stall speed and maneuverability on a particular A/C. This is true, and of course would be nice. This is why I am conflicted on this topic... but my position (again) is that even if there is only a 1% chance that a mod like the VG could quietly "save your bacon" as Mike says, why not try it? If your worried about drag/speed, than a "bushed out" 170/180/182 is probably not what your after anyway. It was articulated in Jim Richmond's video, that the VG will always be "there," you don't have to turn it on, and you may not ever know if it helped you out. I agree with this completely. In my case, the birds I have had a hand in building have bubbles, big tires, etc, and are draggy as heck, so who really cares about any drag. These planes are expensive... With the median sunk cost (after mods) at over $150k easy (if your honest) why quibble over a safety mod at 1% of the value?

I can only speak to my personal experience flying 170s, 180s and 185s. This is with VGs and w/o. With a sportsman and w/o, and with sportsman/VGs and with a Sportsman w/o VGs. Mind you its not hundreds of hours in these configurations, and in some configurations not even tens, but enough to where I felt I found my own answer. My perspective is not that of a commercial operator, but of that of a comparatively new pilot/mechanic/enthusiast who is interested in finding out what really works and does not.

Lastly, this "seat of the pants" idea down playing the value of modern mods such as the AOA (Sportsman, VGs, big tires, you fill in the blank...) is a shame. This same tune was played with seat belts, headsets, radios, GPS, 406 ELTs... Its the tune of the Luddite. Progress is exciting, and any technology that opens my eyes, helps me in some way, and can possibly help keep me safe without being overly cumbersome or cluttered is a step in the right direction.

But again... my 0.02, which is worth what you paid for it. Fun discussion.

There is a lot of opinion in this thread. However, like most things aviation, aerodynamics are based on science, so are VG's. Placement (location and angle), aircraft wing and VG shape all factor in. Fact is that VG's delay boundary layer separation at high angles of attack. How much does a particular aircraft type benefit from it? That all depends on the factors mentioned before.

Anyone who is interested in unbiased facts, including some fancy math can read it here:

http://orbit.dtu.dk/files/5580397/erl8_1_015006.pdf

https://upcommons.upc.edu/bitstream/han ... sAllowed=y

Oh, boy, now we’re into the “old timers” vs the “new kids”. Shades of “In my day we walked to school four miles, uphill both ways in knee deep snow.”

Okay, I’ll bite: Ask Headoutdaplane how many times in a day he has that Beaver on the very edge, getting out of the water with big loads.......WORKING floats is where you learn really quickly what contact is talking about with reference to “low ground effect”. I can’t even guess how many hundreds of time I’ve yarded a heavy seaplane out of the water well below its advertised and demonstrated stall speed, and nursed it along as it caught its breath enough to initiate a climb. But, by Greg’s metric, that’s not operating a wing close to the edge of its envelope?

Actually, that’s operating it beyond the limits of its envelope.

But, of course, that’s not as informative as someone water skiing (at well above stall speed) at super light weights for giggles.

I’m sorry, Greg, but your argument simply illustrates how little you really understand about working airplanes, day in and day out.

I have no problem at all with folks playing with airplanes. It can be fun and exilerating, no doubt. And you can learn a lot about flying that way.

But to suggest that those of us who worked airplanes for thousands of hours haven’t learned a few things and haven’t learn to extract that last little bit of performance out of our airplanes is presumptuous at best.

A lot of gravel bars, lakes, ponds, beaches, and snow covered terrain have taught us a wee bit about extracting performance from an airplane.....

MTV

Bigrenna wrote:

mtv wrote:your argument simply illustrates how little you really understand about working airplanes, day in and day out...

Unfortunately you have missed my point yet again. Not much more I can say, so I will leave it at that. Lots of good stuff to chew on here, and a fun discussion for sure!

Show each other your junk already.

“Lastly, this "seat of the pants" idea down playing the value of modern mods such as the AOA (Sportsman, VGs, big tires, you fill in the blank...) is a shame. This same tune was played with seat belts, headsets, radios, GPS, 406 ELTs... Its the tune of the Luddite. Progress is exciting, and any technology that opens my eyes, helps me in some way, and can possibly help keep me safe without being overly cumbersome or cluttered is a step in the right direction.”

Greg, no offense, but you are so far off in left field with this statement that it’s actually funny. Do you seriously think Willie Steen invented the Sportsman kit? That kits been around for decades, and on working airplanes for that long. I started flying one in the eighties, and that was added to a Robertson equipped airplane......now there’s a STOL kit.....with documented ACTUAL performance improvements. And a few folks argue that the RSTOL kit is dangerous, etc.....but I love those airplanes, and firmly regret the kit is no longer available

Seat belts? Holy smokes, I can’t recall an airplane that wasn’t equipped with seat belts, and mine were all equipped with shoulder harnesses, going on fifty years ago. Headsets.....yeah, I was an early adopter.....in the mid seventies, but it wasn’t long before everybody used them. I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding “radios” and GPS??? Holy shit, there is NOTHING in Aviation that caught on as fast as GPS. Now, 406 ELTs, ill give you that one.

But, here’s my experience in Aviation: any time I’ve seen an “advancement” that applied to Aviation that ACTUALLY provided good value, damn near every pilot I know has jumped on it.

Consider GPS......need I say more. We’re talking Boeing’s with a Garmin GPS-III Pilot stuck to the glare shield, etc. The concept of weather cameras was introduced to interior Alaska pilots as part of a PHd project by an Army pilot on sabbatical. Within a couple weeks, every commercial pilot in the interior was watching those cameras. Now, that system has hundreds of cameras in Alaska. See any dedicated Aviation weather cams in the Lower 48? Didn’t think so.

Big tires? Really? My first work airplane was equipped with Goodyear 25 inch Airwheels.....the inspiration if you will for Bushwheel’s. That was in 1977. If Bushwheel’s had been available then, we’d have been using them then.

So, my point is that a lot of the stuff you’re talking about has been in use for decades by working pilots and a lot of recreational pilots as well.

Pilots are, in general, nearly always looking for things/procedures that make their lives easier and safer. Oh, there’s always a few, no doubt, but even those just need to understand how advancements can help them.

Again, I don’t have a beef with VGs. My point is simply do some research on the topic. And understand that, just because a mod works on one airfoil doesn’t necessarily imply it’ll work on others. There are some pretty smart folks out there who can articulate the aerodynamics far better than I.

MTV

akgreg wrote:Show each other your junk already.

Well... that escalated quickly!

Bigrenna wrote

"I flew the other day with a retired airline pilot. He made a point of telling me he had 30,000hrs flying. I thought wow, until we started the ground roll and I looked down to see his feet on the floor."

Well, I fly airliners and I have NEVER started any take off rollin any airplane with my feet flat on the floor nor have I ever seen anyone else in an airliner or any other type of airplane. What you saw is very unusual.

I don't have a problem with AOAIS I was installing them onjets 40 years ago. It was a really pricey option back in the day. And they were really helpful to a lot of pilots. I personally don't need one in my plane though. I prefer to keep my head and eyes focused outside the plane on landing. When I was a new pilot I would steel glances at the airspeed on landing but not anymore, not at all on a plane I am familiar with for sure. I love GPS for many reasons, but I still keep a sectional chart open in the cockpit. Yes, a carry over from Loran : ) I pull DGs, extra radios, ADF, DMEs, ECT out of my planes, because all I need is one radio, xponder, but I keep the seat belts : ) But I hate carpet. I also like to keep a set of 850s mounted up, so I can do a qyuck swap when I need them. I refuse to put panties on any of my plane though.

I have really enjoyed this thread and perhaps share the perspective of some of you. I am re-entering the flying world after 25 years, have about 500 hours in mostly nose-draggers and a very little tailwheel and off-airport experience. I have a few hours in my new-to-me plane, which has short wings compared to what I am used to. It is a 22/20 with Stewart tips and a PA-18 tail. It seems to be pretty balanced, but when you slow it down the controls soften up and you can feel it start to drop out from under you, or a really great seat-of-the pants AOA.. I just installed Micro VG's on her, hopefully to be able to continue working on my approach skills. Haven't flown her yet, so i am really interested in the results.

Pilot,
I hope the vgs help. Power is what really helps short winged airplanes land slow. Control the sink with power. You are blasting air over half the wing area. Cessna only a third. With full flaps and slow they sink also, requiring power to control the sink.
Very, very few land too short. More go long. Also, slow makes a huge difference if it gets crooked.
Contact

G44 wrote:Bigrenna wrote

"I flew the other day with a retired airline pilot. He made a point of telling me he had 30,000hrs flying. I thought wow, until we started the ground roll and I looked down to see his feet on the floor."

Well, I fly airliners and I have NEVER started any take off rollin any airplane with my feet flat on the floor nor have I ever seen anyone else in an airliner or any other type of airplane. What you saw is very unusual.

Yeah, you use your feet to steer the airplane on take off roll.... right;)

gunny

Gunny wrote:

G44 wrote:Bigrenna wrote

"I flew the other day with a retired airline pilot. He made a point of telling me he had 30,000hrs flying. I thought wow, until we started the ground roll and I looked down to see his feet on the floor."

Well, I fly airliners and I have NEVER started any take off rollin any airplane with my feet flat on the floor nor have I ever seen anyone else in an airliner or any other type of airplane. What you saw is very unusual.

Yeah, you use your feet to steer the airplane on take off roll.... right;)

gunny

Larger oil burners use tillers instead of rudder peddles to control the crutch on the nose!
"Another one of those helpful items that I donot need on my plane, but don't mind if others do" : )