Dean wrote:a64,

I think you're confusing two seperate things here. Anything that you do to change the basic empty weight of a plane needs to be done by an A&P, lighter radios, floats, taking out the back seat, stuff thats designed to be permanent. The calculations you do for passengers and such don't require an A&P.

That's not correct. Removing a seat is an owner loggable event. It does have to be logged, nobody does that in the real world, and the owner can sign that off. Falls under the owner the same category as changing your oil.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:
Is the rear seat on most TCDS as required equipment?

Most aircraft that we fly the only required seat is the pilots seat. On Cessna's you'll see that listed on the equipment list with an "R", as in required for certification. The others will be listed with an "S" or "O", as in standard or optional. The aircraft can legally be flown with these seats removed. Check the TCDS for your plane to see what's required.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enFrameSet

It's not whether the rear seat is on the TCDS. It's whether it's on the current aircraft EQUIPMENT LIST.

As to who can remove a rear seat, see my comment regarding "simple procedure" for this. I'd bet that almost ANY inspector would consider removing a stock Cessna rear seat a "complex procedure" requiring a mechanic to perform it.

Now, my sling seat, which requires NO hardware to be removed?? Simple procedure, but even that would probably be argued by some inspectors.

As to the wheel skis, they move fore and aft. The stc calls out for the mechanic to calculate two w & B for the airplane, skis up skis down.

I'd bet that Cessna limits the aft end of the envelope to compensate for worst case loading, ie: aft CG and gear up, since everyone is going to fold the gear on every flight.

On the other hand, there are many flights with a wheel ski airplane where you may never cycle the gear, so why limit your CG range?

MTV

first thing I did when I got my Maule was remove the back seat. Second thing was get the new W&B from my A&P and I keep both in the plane. He didn't weigh the plane nor do anything other than weigh the seat and put the new computations on file and gave me a new W&B for the plane. It's in the seat back with a few other required things. What's the big deal. I put the seat in and take it out when I want to. WHo cares whether he did it or I did it. When found in the configuration it's in by the FAA they aren't going to ask who took it out. THey aren't that concerned. THey only concern themselves with paper work. After all they are government workers remember. Some of them wouldn't know if it required a back seat if you told them it was a utility aircraft. Remember the one who grounded a twin he found on the ramp with Qtip props cause he thought it had a prop strike. Duh.

mtv wrote:It's not whether the rear seat is on the TCDS. It's whether it's on the current aircraft EQUIPMENT LIST.

As to who can remove a rear seat, see my comment regarding "simple procedure" for this. I'd bet that almost ANY inspector would consider removing a stock Cessna rear seat a "complex procedure" requiring a mechanic to perform it.

Now, my sling seat, which requires NO hardware to be removed?? Simple procedure, but even that would probably be argued by some inspectors.

As to the wheel skis, they move fore and aft. The stc calls out for the mechanic to calculate two w & B for the airplane, skis up skis down.

I'd bet that Cessna limits the aft end of the envelope to compensate for worst case loading, ie: aft CG and gear up, since everyone is going to fold the gear on every flight.

On the other hand, there are many flights with a wheel ski airplane where you may never cycle the gear, so why limit your CG range?

MTV

How could removing a Cessna seat be complex? There's five bolts. Two in the front and three across the back for the 182 I had. The tough part is getting the seat back in without scratching something. I've had this discussion with Helena FSDO. We had a day several years back where FSDO comes to your airport and holds the PACE program. basically you show them your plane and it's logbooks and they look at it and tell you what is not up to snuff. It's all done in a nonconfrontational manner. You can also fly with them for an hour or so if you'd like. While the two FSDO guys were going over my plane I asked some specific question to some old wives tales that applied to me. For example I had recently installed an all new leather interior, done by a local Billings upholstery shop that does not do airplanes. Signed off by me. No problem they said, looks great. We talked about the three W+B configurations I have on a single page. They really liked that, although they said to be sure to log it each time you remove or replace the seat. Even if it's just on an envelope you have in the glove box like your 30 day VOR check. Uh, yeah, I'll make sure and do that.

Bonanzaman,

Yep, you are truly fortunate to have FAA folks like that. On the other hand, I guarantee you that if you don't have FAA approved fire retardency paperwork for that interior of yours, you'd get violated in many districts.

That is the problem with the FAA: What you experience in your district may have absolutely NO resemblance to what I see in my district.

An example is the difference between the Fargo (ND) and Minneapolis districts: Like day and night. The Fargo district approves virtually NO field approvals, and will violate you in a heartbeat if you are dumb enough to install ANYthing as a minor. The Minneapolis FSDO, on the other hand, seems pretty reasonable, as you describe for BiL.

Problem is, if you have a problem in the Fargo district, or any other district which has that attitude, it makes NO difference what your home district told you.

And, in most districts, if you have to remove a nut and/or bolt to accomplish something, it'll require an A & P. Don't get on me, I'm simply stating what is commonly held in most districts by the FAA, and, yes, even in the Minneapolis District. I have telemetry antennas on a Cub. To remove or install them is, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Alaska Region, FAA, a "simple" process. Not here. Requires an A & P, even though there is no weight and balance change.

Do not look for logic here,

MTV

mtv wrote:Bonanzaman,

Yep, you are truly fortunate to have FAA folks like that. On the other hand, I guarantee you that if you don't have FAA approved fire retardency paperwork for that interior of yours, you'd get violated in many districts.

That is the problem with the FAA: What you experience in your district may have absolutely NO resemblance to what I see in my district.

An example is the difference between the Fargo (ND) and Minneapolis districts: Like day and night. The Fargo district approves virtually NO field approvals, and will violate you in a heartbeat if you are dumb enough to install ANYthing as a minor. The Minneapolis FSDO, on the other hand, seems pretty reasonable, as you describe for BiL.

Problem is, if you have a problem in the Fargo district, or any other district which has that attitude, it makes NO difference what your home district told you.

And, in most districts, if you have to remove a nut and/or bolt to accomplish something, it'll require an A & P. Don't get on me, I'm simply stating what is commonly held in most districts by the FAA, and, yes, even in the Minneapolis District. I have telemetry antennas on a Cub. To remove or install them is, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Alaska Region, FAA, a "simple" process. Not here. Requires an A & P, even though there is no weight and balance change.

Do not look for logic here,

MTV

The leather I put in the 182 met FAR 23.853. There's some disagreement as to whether or not you're required to for the CAR3 stuff but in the real world it has been my experience that it's tough to find material that doesn't meet the FAR. Next time you're at your local upholstery shop look at the cardboard backer that the samples are attached to. Somewhere on there in fine print you'll see all the federal standards the material meets. One of those listed will be FAR 23.853. All I did was make a copy of that and include it in the aircraft paperwork.
That's the first I've heard of any FSDO balking at an owner removing/replacing his back seats. I think I might laugh as I fly away. You want to look at my logbooks Mr. FSDO Man, no problem. Give me a call when I get home and make an appointment.
So how does one have a problem in the Fargo district? He looks at my plane and sees an Air Gizmo in the panel and demands to know how that was signed off? I say it's properly installed and if you'd like to make an appointment to look at the logs then by all means give me a call when I get home. What's the sequence of events here?

FWIW, if you get a special fabric or something you really like, it's not hard or expensive to have it conformed.

Bonanzaman,

No, what ANY inspector has the power to do in a case where he suspects airworthiness issues is to yellow tag the airplane. It is then unairworthy. You fly it, you are violated, EVEN if the the original reason for the yellow tag turns out to be not valid.

If they hang a yellow tag, you are grounded till you can prove it's airworthy.

They don't do it often, but your attitude is often the deciding factor.

Give them the attitude that you're outta there before they think the conversation is over, and.....

I have seen it done.

MTV

Wow! From what I gather on this post I better get busy doing about 400 different wt/bal(s) on my aircraft. It seems that most of you are of the opinion that every time a seat is in a different position that a wt/bal is required. In my case I have 6 seats that all move and can be moved as much as 1-4 feet. The question is what happens when a seat sits in a track that allows a seat to move to different moments in the aircraft and that seat is moved? Do you need to have a new wt/bal for that seat location?

It would seem to me that if you can move 1 or more seats in a track a foot each, that would have an effect on the cg. I find no where in the POH about having to recalculate a wt/bal when a passenger or the pilot moves his seat in flight.

I also tend to agree with bonanzaman. With me, the FAA would need to make an appointment to see my logs. (Not to be rude to the inspector but simply I do not carry my logs in the aircraft as they are kept in a fire safe off site. Nor do I carry my pilot flight log). The only things that are available during a ramp check are my pilot license (photo Id) and medical.

To my knowledge the FAA has no authority to climb aboard your aircraft. So how would the inspector know if the radios or leather seats have a 337 without looking at the logs or calling OK City on a Sunday afternoon and doing a lot of research to yellow tag the aircraft? It seem to me that if the inspector has prior information about and aircraft not being in conformance with its TC that the inspection would not be a simple ramp check but a conformity inspection or something of that nature.

I understand that current AROW is required to be in the aircraft but I cannot find anywhere in the regs that require a pilot to produce the doc's or allow an inspector to climb on or in the aircraft during a ramp check. Maybe you can shed some light on this Mike.

I may have missed a thing or two in these posts but I believe we were talking about removing seats not using them in the prescribed manner in which they were designed. The fact remains, and is a fact, that if you remove a rear seat you need a weight and balance for that configuration. It's not a big deal to get done and my mechanic did mine in fifteen minutes. The problem of not having one with you comes when you encounter, and that would be a chance encounter, a FAA official who is not only official but officious and wants to prove he has the power to detain you and your precious steed. I didn't mean for this thread to get testy. I only was relaying info i know to be true in hopes of helping another pilot. THe incident I relayed regarding the qtip props actually did happen. An all knowing FAA dude saw the newly installed q tips on a twin as he was strolling along the flight line and promptly yellow tagged the aircraft. Result, aircraft doesn't fly till the owner proves the FAA guy was a dunce.

This may be nit picking, but do you have to be able to produce a wt. and bal. sheet or do you just have to prove the aircraft is within wt. and bal? I know this is all thoretical anyway, just curious.
The reason I ask is for example you are no longer required to carry paper charts.
FWIW, if you get stupid on them, they can find any number of reasons to ground you. Don't pick a fight that you cannot win, or one that isn't worth winning.

I've been told by several pilots and A&P's since I brought this up that a W&B on paper is required if you fly sans back seat. (Sans means without for you folks from Rio Linda) It"s such a small thing to be legal why question it. Just get it done, fold the paper, and put it in the plane. If it comes up you'll be glad you did, if never then what have you lost. I'm sure it won't overgross your plane but do what you want. I don't dwell on the reasons why for these things. If it's an easy thing to do I do it. Especially here in the SO Cal area. Our FAA guys are absolutely not your "Friendly FAA guy only here to helP you" . Try getting a field approval for anything here in San Diego!!! Not gonna happen any time soon if at all. Besides the best part is it doesn't cost anything. At least it shouldn't but then I don't know your A&P. Mine just did it and gave it to me.

Ice,
I'm my A&P/IA, but I still think that it does not require me to wear that hat to do a W&B. I just would bet money, I can do one with my pilot hat on. Shoot, I might even call the folks at the FSDO to verify that.

Absolutely it would be a waste of your time to do it. Forget I even mentioned it. How silly of me!!! YOu are absolutely correct. You don't have to do a weight and balance when your seat is out. (But I have one anyway)

I did up a new W&B sheet when I installed a single rear jump seat in my 170 a few years back. Weighed the airplane and everything, then printed up a real nice W&B sheet,including loading charts (seat/baggage/fuel station arms, etc). An A&P/IA friend who ran the 337 paperwork thru his PMI at the local FSDO told me that the new W&B sheet had to be signed by an A&P- which he then did. Cool- I'm legal.
FWIW, the W&B sheet I did up shows the empty weight and balance of the aircraft in all three configurations- stock rear seat, no rear seat,single jump seat. BTW, the stock rear seat/seatbelt combo weighs 32#. Jump seat installation weighs 10.

Eric

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what an FAA Inspector has the right and obligation to see when conducting a ramp check.

For you paranoid types, you are correct, the Inspector does NOT have the right to enter your airplane, and you do NOT have to carry maintenance paperwork with you aboard the airplane.

However, you are REQUIRED to present to an inspector, upon demand, the items suggested in AROW: Airworthiness Certificate, Registration, Operating Limitations, and WEIGHT AND BALANCE.

So, let's say that you are being ramp checked. The Inspector says "Show me the airplane's documents".

a) The Airworthiness certificate must be in PLAIN VIEW in the cockpit, but if he's an old guy, he can ask you to pull it out of the holder, and let him read it.

b) Operating Limitations includes the following: Approved flight manual, Required Placards and Required Markings. There is a point of law called "Open Field Doctrine" or something like that. If the inspector looks THROUGH THE WINDOW of your air machine, and sees that there are no airspeed indicator markings, for example--the airplane SHOULD be yellow-tagged as not airworthy. THat means it doesn't move unless it has been brought into conformity and/or a ferry permit is issued. Guess who issues the ferry permit?

c. Weight and Balance: The guy looks in the back of your airplane. No rear seats. None. Hmmmmm, most of these things have rear seats.....He then looks at the W & B paperwork, and it says nothing about being weighed without seats. Airplanes are normally weighed with seats. So, he asks "Where is your weight and balance for this configuration?" ie: without seats. Uhhhhh....I calculated one. He then asks, "Okay, and who removed the rear seats?" Uhhhhh......I did. If you have a Good Guy here, he's going to give you some advice and send you on your way. If not, yellow tag.

If you MOVE a yellow tagged airplane under its own power for the purpose of flight, YOU will most likely be violated, and that will almost certainly result in certificate action, as in bye bye license.

As to the question of moveable seats: The manufacturer of the aircraft provides you with the arm for the center of the seat tracks normally, but sometimes they give you the range. It is then technically up to YOU as the pilot to figure out where the seats are actually located. By the same token, your 3 foot long baggage compartment is shown in the POH as being located at, say 84 inches aft of datum. Well, actually not everything you can load back there is actually going to result in it's acting precisely AT 84 inches aft, but to simplify the calculation process, we take a few short cuts, and that is legitimate, within limits.

But, what we are talking about here is a change in CONFIGURATION. The seats are generally listed on the aircraft's equipment list. If you remove them, or your A & P removes them, there needs to be a notation in the equipment list that the airplane can be operated without them. THAT requires a separate weight and balance, in MANY people's opinion.

As Iceman says, it is no big deal to do this, and if you do get unlucky and run into a butthead Inspector, you will probably really impress him or her, with your paperwork, which is mostly what they care about.

BUT, any time an inspector SEES something that they know to be out of conformity, they have the power to ground an airplane until maintenance records are produced. Generally, what happens there is they ASK the pilot about thus and such widget. Pilot responds "Yep, that's approved under a field approval issued by one of those nutball Inspectors in Alaska". End of conversation.

But, respond with "I don't have to show you shit, sir or madam". You will probably, at the very least, receive a letter, asking you to bring your maintenance logs in for inspection. At that point, you had best make absolutely CERTAIN that EVERY i is dotted and EVERY t is crossed in those logs, cause they are going to get a VERY thorough examination.

Don't open that door, is my advice--not never.

MTV

exactly my point. As I said they are GUVMINT workers with all that entails.

Bonanza Man wrote:
I think I might laugh as I fly away. You want to look at my logbooks Mr. FSDO Man, no problem. Give me a call when I get home and make an appointment.

He looks at my plane and sees an Air Gizmo in the panel and demands to know how that was signed off? I say it's properly installed and if you'd like to make an appointment to look at the logs then by all means give me a call when I get home.

Holy crap Bonanza Man...you are one cocky pilot. Whether you like it or not the FAA CAN AND WILL ground you for an attitude like that. They can find a reason to ground a factory new aircraft let alone the old birds that we all fly. Even if the Inspector is wrong, guess who the authority is that you have to appeal to in order to get airworthy again, and we all know how fast the FAA is with paperwork. There is such a thing as respect for authority and it tends to go a long way, even if the authoritarian is wrong in his / her actions. A respectful attitude has gotten me out of more innocent (and not so innocent) mistakes than I would like to admit.

If you want to play the game then you have to play by the rules and attitude is often what dictates the punishment. Remind me not to fly with or around you...I enjoy having the PRIVILEGE to fly and would like to keep it that way.

iceman wrote:Absolutely it would be a waste of your time to do it. Forget I even mentioned it. How silly of me!!! YOu are absolutely correct. You don't have to do a weight and balance when your seat is out. (But I have one anyway)

Ice,
I'm NOT saying you don't have to have one, I think you have to have a weight and balance calculation to cover the current aircraft configuration. What I think is that that if a pilot can change the weight and or moment of an airplane by loading or removing or installing equipment that a pilot is allowed to remove or install, then he is allowed / required to recalculate W&B.
I've got a call in to Terry Keberly, my PMI at the Atl FSDO. I am going to find out what his interpretation / opinion is in this. I could be 100% wrong, if so then I will learn something. I feel the day I think I know it all is the day I should stop flying or I will hurt somebody.