I can't comment too much on the FAA opinions. I'm not an I/A, and live in another country.

My understanding was that the FAA was accepting the Dynon as a backup instrument only, and typically a backup to an EFIS. If the type certificate for your airplane requires specific flight instruments, then those instruments need to be PMA'd and TSO'd. If they are not listed, then they were optional, and you could probably replace them with a non TSO item such as the Dynon, as long as it's considered a minor modification. An EFIS typically needs backup with a turn coordinator, airspeed, and altitude instruments. The Dynon EFIS really becomes nothing more than an unnecessary accessory in the eyes of the FAA. As long as it's not going to have a negative impact on the airworthiness, the FAA doesn't care. No electrical or fire risk-no foul.

The type certificate refers to the CARs in effect at the date of manufacture. If you have the original equipment list it may list the instruments that were standard, and those that were supplied as optional. If you don't have it, that's where a forum like this may turn up someone who does, or who knows. You'll see on the TCDS, that the airplane is to be placarded for Day-Night-VFR-IFR as applicable. This would have depended on the flight instruments, lighting, and avionics installed at time of manufacture. Note that if you sorted all this out, and stripped your airplane out to be Day-VFR equipped only, no amount of instrumentation from the non TSO world would get you back to Night-IFR.

A new DG and AI aren't horribly priced in comparison to the rest of what you're proposing to spend. I highly recommend you just bite the bullet and change them both as part of your upgrade.

Background. Our flying club lost a young member 10 years ago in a Cherokee 235 that was still equipped with the early black and white AI, and the hockey puck DG. He lost it in a turn at low altitude trying to retreat from some bad weather after dark. Bad decision making to end up there in the first place, but I'd had trouble interpreting those instruments after transitioning from a newer Cessna at a flight school. I've never blamed myself and the other members, but often, and still, wonder if more modern gauges with a more intuitive user interface could have saved his life. Remember the Buddy Holley story with the non standard Sperry Gyro?

If you've flown this airplane for years and years, and are intimate with the old gyros, then please disregard.

The original equipment list for my 1953 C180 lists the horizon & DG as optional.
They are not required for VFR flight, even at night- at least in the US.

Hammer wrote:....No doubt others will (vehemently) disagree, but there is no point in getting an IFR license if you're not going to regularly file IFR and fly approaches. 20 hours of hood work and some actual with an instructor will give you the ability to control your aircraft to IFR standards while flying on the clocks if you have to. ....The rest of the IFR training is a gigantic waste of time and money if you're not going to use it. ....If you end up upgrading nav/com radios to IFR standards and then don't use them, that's more wasted money. ...I think it's important to have working attitude instruments and to be able to fly on them with confidence, even in a VFR airplane. Past that I think there are a lot of diminishing returns on hard earned dollars.

Well said, Hammer, I agree.
I know people who spent a lot of time & money earning their instrument tickets, then never flew IFR.
Now, years later, they're no better prepared to fly into the soup than I am.

.

Extremely helpful discussion boys!!! I'll do a wallet biopsy and see where I end up.......

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Man, that is one busy little screen! Seems like it would be kinda hard to pick out the information you want with all that stuff going on in a 3" or 4" display,

180lamb wrote:Extremely helpful discussion boys!!! I'll do a wallet biopsy and see where I end up.......

Make sure to document the project for us looky-loos on here. I also have a '59 180B with a well-travelled panel. Looking to simplify and lighten it at some point without spending too much gas money.

As to the VFR/IFR thing -- I'm one of those guys who's rated but doesn't fly IFR. I don't at all regret getting the rating though. The training is good for you. Just be realistic about how often you'd actually use it.

I've thought about pursuing an instrument rating in the past, but decided that 1) I don't really wanna fly around in the clouds, and 2) the freezing level is pretty low in the wintertime around here, when an instrument ticket would be most useful. If I flew a lot of "just have to be there" trips, like for business, maybe I'd feel differently, but even after 20 years of flying I'm OK with just being a VFR pilot.

Here's what's in my 56 182, this with and iPad and stratus is plenty to play with

Hotrod180......I like the sentiment. I would add...I'm ok with being a tailwheel VFR pilot!!!!

oh, the tailwheel part goes without saying!

Hoeschen, very nice panel-- clean and simple but with everything you need. What Garmin box is that? I assume it's coupled to the HSI so you're IFR-capable including approaches.

hotrod180 wrote:oh, the tailwheel part goes without saying!

Hoeschen, very nice panel-- clean and simple but with everything you need. What Garmin box is that? I assume it's coupled to the HSI so you're IFR-capable including approaches.

Garmin 430W, yes GPS or NAV will drive the HSI

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Man, that is one busy little screen! Seems like it would be kinda hard to pick out the information you want with all that stuff going on in a 3" or 4" display,

It is surprisingly easy once you spend a few minutes with any new display. I've flown 5 different glass cockpits now, and if I can help it, will choose glass over mechanical instruments any time I am able. For me, the benefits far outweigh the cost. The all-in-one backup attitude indicators we use on the big jets are very similar, and are much easier to read and fly when the excrement hits the fan - even from 4 feet away!

4' away??

That's like in the extended baggage area in some of our airplanes

R.C. ALLEN artifical horizon RAC2600 in the dash. It will keep wings and nose level. I have flown in some real crap with my 795 gps. Dynon is a great backup. No matter what you have if you don't trust the gauge than you will not make it.
DENNY

180lamb wrote:Gentlemen(I use the term loosely),

I need a place to start initial research on panel upgrades for my 59 Cessna 180B. I fly primarily in the mountains of ID, WY and MT with the occasional cross country trip(one a year). I will pursue an instrument rating at some point(don't know when) and really don't see myself flying IFR with this plane, ever............. unless the crap really hit the fan. If I was IFR rated I would only need to bust through a cloud layer on rare occasions and would not feel comfortable doing it, so......... I probably wouldn't.

I have all the old original steam gauges, an old kx radio that is no good twenty miles out on hot dust days, as well a transponder/encoder that is at least 100 ft off the last time I called center to check. The most up to date piece is the garmin aera 560. The above instruments did get me to Bahamas and back though...............

If this was your plane and your mission profile what would you put in, on or around the panel? I'm looking for simple, practical and light. I don't need bells and whistles. But I do want safety and some redundancy.........Also any comments on the ADSB instruments related to my panel would be appreciated.


Whats the most you put in this panel? Whats the least you would put in this panel?


Justin

Well if you see a panel in a like airplane -180/182 of same time period -Get a copy of there records from Oak City.I've done one with field approval -VFR with GPS only -You can order the CD for N5502B and copy it . Steam Gauges and a few electronic marvels . .

DENNY wrote: R.C. ALLEN artifical horizon RAC2600 in the dash....

Here's a photo of one, vs a Dynon D2 portable. I like it, it's just what I want.... except for the price tag: $2600, $2750 with optional ball. That's just how it goes when it comes to certified stuff. I wish Dynon made a simpler cheaper version of the D2 which just had the artificial horizon and ball. I don't need the rate-of-turn, and I already have all the other (GPS-derived) features (groundspeed, track, altitude, vertical speed) in my Garmin 196 and don't really need to duplicate them or want them cluttering up the horizon display.

Not a Cessna panel 5 pack...installed ECi's engine monitor in the DG hole, vertical compass will mount on top of the panel. trig radio, Scandia transponder upgradeable to ADS-B out. iPad Air mount using foreflight. Empty hole is for Scandia's all in one TSO'd flight instrument. Foreflight and the stratus 2 gives me the GPS navigation....don't know if the panel would be considered a IFR legal? I follow rivers, no roads anywhere near so.....

Mark, I think other than a means of nav like an ifr gps or vor receiver you should be good to go. I'd pull the regs and double check though.

Love your panel

Yeah, good looking panel.