gbflyer wrote:

Apollo wrote:How does that not make sense??? A pilot that cannot speak English and is not responding to controllers is definitely going to be scrambled on. That is exactly the reason that F-15s and F-16s sit alert all over this great nation of ours!

Too much TV, methinks.

gb

Please explain what you mean by this gb? Why do you think we have fighters on alert?

might just be us idaho pilots, but i think if u can't respect the USA enough to learn the language, 'ya ought to go the hell home...

Plus, I've flown in controlled airspace over Romania, Czech Rep., Belgium, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Saudi, Greece, and yes, France....can you guess what language they spoke to me and all of the other "local" traffic??? Thats right, the official language of aviation worldwide...ENGLISH!

In my opinion, the FAA/Government/Military responded exactly how I would hope they would....ATC receives information about a potentially "unsafe" flight. They took the proper action to mitigate the potential negative impact this flight could have if the pilot had malicious intent. ATC tried to clarify the pilots intent by radio...IN ENGLISH! When the pilot didn't respond, they go to the next step, which is scrambling fighters that sit alert...yes, we have fighters sitting alert, and no that is not from TV, that is real life. My thanks go to those involved in that chain, from ATC to the Military, to those "cowboys" who would gladly give their lives for you or I any day of the week.

Now whether or not the tip to ATC was warranted or not, who knows, we just don't know all of the information.

Apollo wrote:Plus, I've flown in controlled airspace over Romania, Czech Rep., Belgium, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Saudi, Greece, and yes, France....can you guess what language they spoke to me and all of the other "local" traffic??? Thats right, the official language of aviation worldwide...ENGLISH!

In my opinion, the FAA/Government/Military responded exactly how I would hope they would....ATC receives information about a potentially "unsafe" flight. They took the proper action to mitigate the potential negative impact this flight could have if the pilot had malicious intent. ATC tried to clarify the pilots intent by radio...IN ENGLISH! When the pilot didn't respond, they go to the next step, which is scrambling fighters that sit alert...yes, we have fighters sitting alert, and no that is not from TV, that is real life. My thanks go to those involved in that chain, from ATC to the Military, to those "cowboys" who would gladly give their lives for you or I any day of the week.

Now whether or not the tip to ATC was warranted or not, who knows, we just don't know all of the information.

So you think that a Frenchman...and I quote from the article...who "could not communicate well in English and may have a problem transmitting over the radio systems..." who departed with an aircraft that he owns and is licensed to fly after flying with a CFI who didn't think his flying abilities were up to par and should get another instructor but left anyway should have the might of the US Air Force brought to bear on him? Did he fly into some restricted or prohibited airspace? When do we have military aircraft start engaging and shooting down civilian aircraft? Ever hear of the Posse Comitatus Act? Hey, if that is your opinion, then all I can say is it's a free country brother, think what you wish, and I'm glad I live in the bush. You never know, American Aviation there could be hiring.

Heck, they'll probably give that CFI a CM of H for his actions.

By the way, I have the utmost respect for our men and women in uniform, more so than you know. I'm sure the boys had a great time with this guy and are anxious to scare the shit out of the next wayward Cessna pilot speaking in a foreign tongue.

As to the TV comment, the whole thing seems a bit "Jack Bauer-ish" to me.

gb

jomac wrote:might just be us idaho pilots, but i think if u can't respect the USA enough to learn the language, 'ya ought to go the hell home...

So jomac I take it from this statement that you are a Native American?

gb

Note that nothing in the articles said he was getting a flight review, AND the FAA stated pretty unequivocally that he didn't do anything illegal, which would imply he wasn't taking a flight review. Therefore, it is none of the flight instructor's business whether he gets in that airplane and goes flying, whether he speaks the language or not. There's a young man up the road from here a piece that owns a near million dollar airplane, flies it all the time, and he does not hear or speak. Since when is speaking the language a REQUIREMENT? He didn't violate airspace, etc, etc.

As a flight instructor, if you feel someone isn't competent, you endorse their logbook as instruction given. That fulfills your responsibilities. He wasn't being tested, and that isn't the purview of a CFI anyway.

Great use of taxpayer's dollars. With luck the guy will file a complaint with the State Department, and make it an international incident. May as well get those clowns involved as well as the AF.

MTV

jomac wrote:might just be us idaho pilots, but i think if u can't respect the USA enough to learn the language, 'ya ought to go the hell home...

You're mistaken if you think learning another country's language is a sign of respect: it isn't a matter of respect in any way. Foreign languages are darn hard to learn, especially as you get older. I had a hell of a time with Cantonese, and never got beyond the very basics. And that was after using tutors, books, and tapes for a year. So, using your definition, because I didn't master the language I guess I didn't "respect" Hong Kong and China. I got a lot farther in Spanish, even being able to participate in business conversations to a limited extent. But I didn't master it either, so I guess I didn't "respect" Mexico and Spain, too.

You need to rethink your attitude about what reflects respect. It sure isn't the ability to learn a foreign tongue.

Local radio communications over Quebec is likely to be in French. It seems to work better than one might expect. That pilot could actually fly legally in Quebec without learning English.

All Canadian pilots will be getting a new higher security type of pilot licence (with passport style photo) this year. We must also pass an "English proficiency test". I don't agree with the exemption for Quebec when English is the international language of aviation, but thats the way it is.

58Skylane wrote:

Glidergeek wrote:When in Rome do as the Roman's do. Speak English or get off the road or air. Go back to France and speak French or Mexico and drive Mexican. If this clown can't tell us what his intentions are in a traffic pattern he doesn't belong there.

Yep!! I agree!!

When we (U S citizen) go to most foreign country's, we're expected to know there language and respect there culture. Am I not right?? The political correctness has gone way too far in this country!!!

But, I'll also agree that if this French pilot had at least his PPL, was flying out of an uncontrolled airport and staying in an uncontrolled airspace, then yes leave him alone as long as he's not posing any danger among any other aircraft in the pattern or airspace. He doesn't need to talk to any one anyway. But on the other hand, if the plane has an operational radio, the pilot should be using it and speaking fluent English.

58Skylane wrote:

mtv wrote:Man, if you think most Americans who visit a foreign country speak the language or are expected to, you haven't been to many foreign countries....
MTV

To be honest, I never been out of the US. But I have friends and co-workers that travel all over the world every week during the race season and I hear this stuff from them. So maybe they are just bull crapping me??? I dunno......I do know that when some of my co-workers travel to Japan on a regular basis, English is widely excepted over there in the big city's. But your expected to respect there culture and in some cases, follow it to a certain extent. Anyway, I'm not trying to get excited here and not going to waste much more space on stuff like this, but I'm just getting info from people I know that travel all over the world on a regular basis's.

This is going to be my last reply about the above comments I made and just want to man up and apologize if I didn't think about what I was typing in my earlier post's (something I believe a few BIG headed, BIG ego fella's will more than likely never do here on an open public forum). I'm not trying to dwell here neither. Just want to try to dig myself out of another whole I apparently dug. I was just going off of information from my friends and co-workers from the last 18 years of working in the professional motorcycle racing industry and apparently, most of the information is old and may not be true . My friends/co-workers range from Japanese, Italian, Irish, French, Spanish, South African, Australian, New Zealand to name a few. What I did the last day and a half was, I sent a message to all my foreign friends/co-workers on Facebook to ask about language and culture expectations world wide. What I found from some of the responses was in fact, English is widely excepted through out most all regions of the globe. But, if you take the time to learn as much of the native language and culture you can of each country/region your visiting or living in, you will be treated with much more respect. But a few responses suggested that if your willing to travel deeper into the smaller towns and villages, your pretty much in fact expected and greatly appreciated if you do your very best to speak the native language of the area your visiting. This is all coming from my friends and co-workers that still to this day travel all over Asia, Europe and most all other parts of this world on a regular basis. I know some of you guys here on this forum may travel all over the world like some have mentioned and again, I do apologize for not using my head very well at what I had said in earlier post's If you want to keep throwing rocks and stones at me, that's fine. I'm more than strong enough to handle what ever comes my way. I've worked with some of the meanest, harshest, big headed, big ego sums of B&%$#es in the racing/motorcycle business.

Also for the record. Even though I live in Idaho, I have absolutely nothing against all LEGAL foreigners/immigrants visiting and living in this country as long as they are here legally, and don't come into this country expecting to change the way this country was founded on!! After all, most all of our family's were immigrants at one time. My ancestors came to this country legally through Ellis Island in the early 1900's from Poland, and Germany and did there very best to learn to speak English and live the American way! (most of them settled in Winona, MN and Gary, IN)

I will also stand behind my previous statement that the political correctness has gone way too far in this country!

Anyway, that's it!

good points, 58. i think PA totally misunderstood my thoughts here. i work almost daily with "foreigners", and over 95% speak english, both as a matter of respect and an avenue to conduct business. yeah, i guess if u are gonna live in another country and you don't respect it enough to learn the language, u should go the hell home...!

If you are a foreigner coming to live and make a home, Learn the english well enough to be able to communicate. Don't expect me to learn and speak Spanish or any other language so you can live in America !!

... Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61 requires that pilots
must be able to read, write, speak, and understand the English language. ...


No comment on American Aviation's actions.

FAR Part 61 applies only to persons seeking a US pilot certificate. And, as I pointed out earlier, you can get a waiver for this requirement (as in if you're deaf) It has no application in this case. And, once more, note that the CFI claimed that the French pilot didn't speak English "very well". What does that mean? I've met a number of foreign pilots who "didn't speak English very well", but who got along just fine, flying in this country.

MTV

Tell ya what, as an active CFI and military pilot, if I flew with a foreign student/pilot for an aircraft checkout, especially a high performance twin, and he became agitated and and took off after I recommended against it, I would be the first one to call the FAA or DHS. I don't care if he's was French, Japanese or was wearing an Osama Bin Laden T-shirt.

It's one thing to have the average clueless JAL student bumbling up the pattern in a Cherokee, it's another having a non-English speaking, non citizen blasting off into the skies at 175kts when he has not proven competent to do so. There's a big gap between being legal to fly and being safe.

I say good on the CFI for being proactice rather than washing his hands of it. After all, he would've been the one under investigation by the FAA, FBI, etc if the guy had burried the plane in someone's back yard.

Mike-

The problem here is that we are ALL (myself included) making some huge assumptions here. It was specifically stated that the guy never did anything wrong, he never busted airspace. The fact that he didn't respond to air traffic controllers trying to contact him wouldn't even get put in a report had he not been a foreigner. He was apparently not REQUIRED to talk to ATC, so what's the big deal there?

Secondly, the CFI said he was weak in his skills. So, who was the CFI, and what's his experience level in that sort of airplane? I once watched a young, inexperienced CFI go fly with a guy who was just flat shit hot with a C 185. The kid wanted to log some "C 185 time". He got it, then came home and told everyone in range that the owner of the plane was dangerous. I'd flown with that 185 owner, as had several others, and we all knew that the guy was as good with that airplane as it gets. He gave the kid a ride. So, should that CFI have called out the military?? Remember, the CFI in this case didn't even have to be rated in the airplane, according to the FAR. So, was this a young CFI looking to log some turbine time and the guy gave him a ride?? Was this CFI even vaguely qualified to determine that the Frenchman was competent in that airplane?

Or, was this CFI an old hand, well experienced in turbine twins, etc, etc?

Problem is, we don't know.

Third, the instructor didn't say the pilot didn't speak English. He said he couldn't speak it well. Okay, who determines what's "good enough"? In this context, please--not in controlled airspace, etc.... We have Air China students flying around here all the time that hardly anyone can understand. I regularly tell my students, however, that those Air China students' English is a WHOLE lot better than my Cantonese speaking skills.... . And, again, we don't know the context. If this Frenchman didn't enter airspace where ATC communication was required, he isn't required to communicate AT ALL. So, exactly where was the issue with language? As it turned out, he didn't violate any airspace, and the FAA clearly stated that he did nothing wrong.
The CFI "thought" he might get in trouble????? Good grief!! That could apply to a lot of folks.

Okay, let's take this to the next level, folks....you've all seen some of the little video clips that members here have posted. So, what if a CFI concludes that this kind of stuff is just plain dangerous????

Again, it is context that's important. Was this Frenchman a threat? Apparently not. Further, he seemed to manage to fly the airplane and land it when instructed to do so. So, again, he must have known something.

Finally, I've seen a few foreigners who actually understood English quite a bit better than they let on. Who knows if this guy was just jerking an arrogant CFI around some.

Bottom line is that without a whole lot more information, I'd say none of us knows what really went on here, and unless you want some clueless CFI (oh, and there are some of them out there folks) calling the Feds every time you post some "risky looking" stuff on the internet, I'd say that a CFI's job is to evaluate, train, and make logbook entries.

If you're a CFI, you have gone through the TSA's "Security Awareness for CFIs" training, I presume?? If we all followed that BS, we'd be calling out the cavalry on all sorts of innocent people ("What do you do if you see an airplane with grass stuck in its' landing gear??? Call the Police, of course" ), and someone who we witness breaking into an airplane on the ramp, we are told by TSA to "contact our Chief Flight Instructor".

If those are the criteria by which this country is to be made more safe, we're hosed, folks.

I say someone needs to go have a serious chat with that flight instructor, and if indeed the CFI has his sh&t together, give him a thumbs up. If it was just some knob trying to cop a little free turbine time, take him out back and thrash him, then send him the gas bill for the fighters.....

Problem is, WE don't know which it is. I think what I'm trying to suggest here is that we all should use some common sense.

MTV

More and more, If it's not straight and level, it's dangerious! I know of a FAA employee who is afraid to fly in a single engine plane. That fear remains in every stroke of her pen. It may not be long before GA is only allowed to taxi (for safety sake). (and then must have a ground guide)

This "let's rat out the other guy" s%$t scares me. Methinks that we'd be a whole lot better off if more people minded their own business.

Best,
O-2

MTV and Others
I'm kind of a USA Patriot type of person, Tea Party, And pretty damned Independent!, And also a Don't ever go to the Feds type person, but I did think on the first Knee Jerk response from me that I knew more than was stated and assumed a lot also.
This discussion has went down it's road and 1 for I appreciate the whole show of all the sides here!
Right here I would like to Thank Zane and whoever else makes this Sight available!
There definitely needs to be a PAY PAL BUTTON SOMEWHERE!
Reading the various posts and thought from all has given me a chance to pull my Head out from between my Cheeks and wipe my Eyes clear of all the brown stuff covering them!
Mike I Appreciate your candor and thoughts, Not always the same as mine, but I appreciate them none the less!
There was obviously No Harm, No Foul! Like you said, Maybe the CFI had his first ride in the 425?Maybe he couldn't understand the other guys English?? I'm around a lot of different speaking folks and some versions I understand better than others!
I know I have scared the hell out of a few of guys (Pilots of lots of time, but not in same conditions)on some flights, but they have never called anyone to report me!
When you take some one who is very proficient in there world and put them in another, Things look very scary until they have a grasp of what is happening.( I know I rode jump seat on a few jets and never had a clue as to what was happening!) When you put the shoe on the other foot, Some of the pilots get a little nervous flying into a 900' one way strip with a dogleg and no go around in a 206 with 4 or 5 guys in it in.
Mike and Others, Again I appreciate your views, and repeating them enough times for some of us really thick headed people to finally listen.
Happy new years
GT