I'm trying to get the Odyssey SBS J16 battery field approved on my 170 in the original battery box. Dropping another 8lbs off the airplane would be nice along with all the other weight savings I've been doing. I know FA Dodge has an STC'd battery box for the 170 that uses this battery but I'd rather get it approved in the original box if I can. I've read through all the old posts I could find and I've PM'd some of you. If anyone has done a field approval for this battery I'd love to get a copy of the 337, especially if it was on a 170. The 337 should help my IA in the field approval process.

Thanks

You do NOT need a field approval to install an Odyssey battery in a 170. There is an advisory circular from the FAA which specifically states that installation of a lead acid battery in place of a lead acid battery is a minor alteration, which therefore can be done by an A/P with a signature.

I'll have to find the AC, and post. It's been posted a couple times on Supercub.org if you do a search over there.

MTV

mtv wrote:You do NOT need a field approval to install an Odyssey battery in a 170. There is an advisory circular from the FAA which specifically states that installation of a lead acid battery in place of a lead acid battery is a minor alteration, which therefore can be done by an A/P with a signature.

I'll have to find the AC, and post. It's been posted a couple times on Supercub.org if you do a search over there.

MTV

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/medi ... .13-2B.pdf

Here it is, chapter 10 page 107

After reading through that it's still not clear to me wether or not I need a field approval or just a logbook entry. It's all in how my IA interprets this I guess, I'll see what he thinks.

Yes, that's the one. Note that this section specifically states "whether TSO'd or not several times.

The SBS 16 J battery is STC'd in the super cub, so it clearly has been approved for aircraft applications. This section says if it's a lead acid battery, install it, verify venting, hold downs, etc and sign it off. Note in the NEXT section, describing replacement of NiCad batteries with lead acid batteries, or vice versa, the AC specifically states that in THIS case, a field approval would be required.

It's pretty clear that they're saying that installation of a lead acid battery in an airplane previously equipped with one is a minor operation.

Since the Odyssey battery is a sealed battery, no vent is required. A new weight and balance would have to be completed, and if installed in the original battery box, a shim needs to be installed to prevent the battery from flopping around in the box. I used a piece of styrofoam on mine.

The FAA so many years ago trained mechanics to get a field approval for everything....even things that are clearly a minor alteration, which only requires a mechanics signature. So, then the FAA decided field approvals were no longer going to be approved, for the most part. And, many mechanics are afraid to sign off things as a minor alteration.......afraid the FAA will come back at them.

I think it's pretty clear in this AC that the intent is no field approval is required for a lead acid battery. It clearly states that a NiCad replacement on the other hand, does require a field approval.

Good luck.

MTV

Wow! I had no idea there was that much weight savings! I'm starting my christmas list early.

mtv wrote:Yes, that's the one. Note that this section specifically states "whether TSO'd or not several times.

The SBS 16 J battery is STC'd in the super cub, so it clearly has been approved for aircraft applications. This section says if it's a lead acid battery, install it, verify venting, hold downs, etc and sign it off. Note in the NEXT section, describing replacement of NiCad batteries with lead acid batteries, or vice versa, the AC specifically states that in THIS case, a field approval would be required.

It's pretty clear that they're saying that installation of a lead acid battery in an airplane previously equipped with one is a minor operation.

Since the Odyssey battery is a sealed battery, no vent is required. A new weight and balance would have to be completed, and if installed in the original battery box, a shim needs to be installed to prevent the battery from flopping around in the box. I used a piece of styrofoam on mine.

The FAA so many years ago trained mechanics to get a field approval for everything....even things that are clearly a minor alteration, which only requires a mechanics signature. So, then the FAA decided field approvals were no longer going to be approved, for the most part. And, many mechanics are afraid to sign off things as a minor alteration.......afraid the FAA will come back at them.

I think it's pretty clear in this AC that the intent is no field approval is required for a lead acid battery. It clearly states that a NiCad replacement on the other hand, does require a field approval.

Good luck.

MTV

I agree with your views on mechanics being apprehensive to sign things off as minor. I often struggle with this myself. I believe that the 8 lb weight change alone would constitute a major alteration. That being said, if I were to do this on my own airplane, I would likely sign it off as a minor, referencing the above AC. I would also do it, knowing that if it ever became an issue, I would use the AC and my weight and balance documents to argue my reasons for the installation.

You'll save more weight if you put it on the firewall, cables are also heavy...

skyjeep wrote:You'll save more weight if you put it on the firewall, cables are also heavy...

One step ahead of you!... The stock location for the battery on the C170 is the firewall

Jeredp wrote:

I believe that the 8 lb weight change alone would constitute a major alteration.

I've heard that from others, but can you provide a regulatory citation? Not saying it isn't so, just looking for an authoritative source.

Thanks. cubscout

Here's the definitions from FAR 43. Please show me where a simple change in weight constitutes a major alteration:


[FAR 43, APPENDIX A: Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance -- FAA FARS, 14 CFR] --



(a) Major alterations -- (1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

(i) Wings.

(ii) Tail surfaces.

(iii) Fuselage.

(iv) Engine mounts.

(v) Control system.

(vi) Landing gear.

(vii) Hull or floats.

(viii) Elements of an airframe including spars, ribs, fittings, shock absorbers, bracing, cowling, fairings, and balance weights.

(ix) Hydraulic and electrical actuating system of components.

(x) Rotor blades.

(xi) Changes to the empty weight or empty balance which result in an increase in the maximum certificated weight or center of gravity limits of the aircraft.

(xii) Changes to the basic design of the fuel, oil, cooling, heating, cabin pressurization, electrical, hydraulic, de-icing, or exhaust systems.

(xiii) Changes to the wing or to fixed or movable control surfaces which affect flutter and vibration characteristics.

(2) Powerplant major alterations. The following alterations of a powerplant when not listed in the engine specifications issued by the FAA, are powerplant major alterations.

(i) Conversion of an aircraft engine from one approved model to another, involving any changes in compression ratio, propeller reduction gear, impeller gear ratios or the substitution of major engine parts which requires extensive rework and testing of the engine.

(ii) Changes to the engine by replacing aircraft engine structural parts with parts not supplied by the original manufacturer or parts not specifically approved by the Administrator.

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(iii) Installation of an accessory which is not approved for the engine.

(iv) Removal of accessories that are listed as required equipment on the aircraft or engine specification.

(v) Installation of structural parts other than the type of parts approved for the installation.

(vi) Conversions of any sort for the purpose of using fuel of a rating or grade other than that listed in the engine specifications.

(3) Propeller major alterations. The following alterations of a propeller when not authorized in the propeller specifications issued by the FAA are propeller major alterations:

(i) Changes in blade design.

(ii) Changes in hub design.

(iii) Changes in the governor or control design.

(iv) Installation of a propeller governor or feathering system.

(v) Installation of propeller de-icing system.

(vi) Installation of parts not approved for the propeller.

(4) Appliance major alterations. Alterations of the basic design not made in accordance with recommendations of the appliance manufacturer or in accordance with an FAA Airworthiness Directive are appliance major alterations. In addition, changes in the basic design of radio communication and navigation equipment approved under type certification or a Technical Standard Order that have an effect on frequency stability, noise level, sensitivity, selectivity, distortion, spurious radiation, AVC characteristics, or ability to meet environmental test conditions and other changes that have an effect on the performance of the equipment are also major alterations.


(b) Major repairs -- (1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.

(i) Box beams.

(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces.

(iii) Wing stringers or chord members.

(iv) Spars.

(v) Spar flanges.

(vi) Members of truss-type beams.

(vii) Thin sheet webs of beams.

(viii) Keel and chine members of boat hulls or floats.

(ix) Corrugated sheet compression members which act as flange material of wings or tail surfaces.

(x) Wing main ribs and compression members.

(xi) Wing or tail surface brace struts.

(xii) Engine mounts.

(xiii) Fuselage longerons.

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(xiv) Members of the side truss, horizontal truss, or bulkheads.

(xv) Main seat support braces and brackets.

(xvi) Landing gear brace struts.

(xvii) Axles.

(xviii) Wheels.

(xix) Skis, and ski pedestals.

(xx) Parts of the control system such as control columns, pedals, shafts, brackets, or horns.

(xxi) Repairs involving the substitution of material.

(xxii) The repair of damaged areas in metal or plywood stressed covering exceeding six inches in any direction.

(xxiii) The repair of portions of skin sheets by making additional seams.

(xxiv) The splicing of skin sheets.

(xxv) The repair of three or more adjacent wing or control surface ribs or the leading edge of wings and control surfaces, between such adjacent ribs.

(xxvi) Repair of fabric covering involving an area greater than that required to repair two adjacent ribs.

(xxvii) Replacement of fabric on fabric covered parts such as wings, fuselages, stabilizers, and control surfaces.

(xxviii) Repairing, including rebottoming, of removable or integral fuel tanks and oil tanks.

(2) Powerplant major repairs. Repairs of the following parts of an engine and repairs of the following types, are powerplant major repairs:

(i) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a reciprocating engine equipped with an integral supercharger.

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(ii) Separation or disassembly of a crankcase or crankshaft of a reciprocating engine equipped with other than spur-type propeller reduction gearing.

(iii) Special repairs to structural engine parts by welding, plating, metalizing, or other methods.

(3) Propeller major repairs. Repairs of the following types to a propeller are propeller major repairs:

(i) Any repairs to, or straightening of steel blades.

(ii) Repairing or machining of steel hubs.

(iii) Shortening of blades.

(iv) Retipping of wood propellers.

(v) Replacement of outer laminations on fixed pitch wood propellers.

(vi) Repairing elongated bolt holes in the hub of fixed pitch wood propellers.

(vii) Inlay work on wood blades.

(viii) Repairs to composition blades.

(ix) Replacement of tip fabric.

(x) Replacement of plastic covering.

(xi) Repair of propeller governors.

(xii) Overhaul of controllable pitch propellers.

(xiii) Repairs to deep dents, cuts, scars, nicks, etc., and straightening of aluminum blades.

(xiv) The repair or replacement of internal elements of blades.

(4) Appliance major repairs. Repairs of the following types to appliances are appliance major repairs:

(i) Calibration and repair of instruments.

(ii) Calibration of radio equipment.

(iii) Rewinding the field coil of an electrical accessory.

(iv) Complete disassembly of complex hydraulic power valves.

(v) Overhaul of pressure type carburetors, and pressure type fuel, oil and hydraulic pumps.


MTV

If you are worried about it, just dump the stock box and battery and get the dodge stc box. Then you can save weight and hassle of trying to figure out if you are legal. I do agree with MTV battery is just do a logbook entry.
DENNY

14 CFR 1.1:

An alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications, that:

1) Might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

Personally, i wouldn't think most people would consider <10 pounds an appreciable change in weight, excepy maybe in an ultralight, especially when it is a reduction.

I talked to an IA who also works for the FAA in Alaska. He told me that because of the weight change it requires approval. He agreed that it was stupid.

I know there is a figure for it somewhere. I wish I could find it. It may have just been from a text book in A&P School years ago.???? For some reason. 1.5 lbs. is stuck in my head. If I find it I'll post it.

Wow that sounds ridiculous. More weight is gained during Thanksgiving dinner.

robw56 wrote:I talked to an IA who also works for the FAA in Alaska. He told me that because of the weight change it requires approval. He agreed that it was stupid.

That's funny.....it was an FAA Inspector in AK who told me it was a minor.

Of course, nowadays, almost any FAA type will tell you EVERYthing requires an STC. Getting a field approval in some, if not most districts is impossible, so suggesting something requires a field approval is in essence, saying you'll have to get an STC.

Not long ago, we were getting field approvals on things in MN that the Dakota FSDOs wouldn't touch.....and Dakota based planes were flying to MN for field approvals........go figure.

MTV

Shit.... Guess I'll have to paint my Home Depot lawn mower 12V battery some shade of pink before next annual.

Gump

Pretty sure you can get different answers from the same office on the same question, even here in AK. I suspect if it is in your logbook as a minor alteration from an A&P then everybody is still legally covered.

What reference is your IA using?
I mean Specific reference.
Just cause he works at the Feds don't make em right.

Here's what the FAA has provided for us IAs to use: FAR 43 app A
Anyone see it?



And 1.5 pounds? I call BS.