absolutely what u said courier...for sure. my long-term business partner is extremely mormon involved, and i would simply trust him with everything, and do. he is absolutely a huge part in why my teenage daughter is now doing awesome and back in boise state u....he opened up his hangar, along with a full-blown blackhawk powered conquest to us anytime it was needed...at absolutely no cost to me...used it many times. turned 5 hr trips into an hour and was a total lifesaver in our situation...so i say if thats being a mormon, he is one class act...i am sad for the loss of that beech and all involved...talked to my pals in mccall today and they were asked to help, did lots of hours in very familiar country to them at no avail...try -20 in a cub for hours...yow!
no doubt ill keep giving away spots at the fly-in...think i will try for a case of them this year...use em u guys, clip them to your body, vest, somehow make sure u can get it if u go down, what a diff. situation this might have been if this were so...and if he could have kept it in one piece...fingers crossed...

A few years ago Idaho Div of Aero was doing a tour of the state to train volunteer pilots in SAR. I really wanted to attend one but was unable. It was supposed to be a continuing program. When you fill out your registration with the state every two years, they ask for some basic information on hours and if you would like to be a volunteer SAR pilot. They also ask about mountain experience. So it seems like they have tried to formally establish a way to use the resource. I just wonder if the CAP comes in and over rides those planes...despite SAR being the state's responsibility. This would be a good question for the Idaho Division of Aeronautics.

The other post hit the nail squarely on the head. So long as CAP is involved, the first string talent won't/can't show up. Our CAP here in OGD is as described above. I've reiterated to Dee that if I'm lost, I want our BCP friends looking for me/us.

Grassstrippilot wrote: I've reiterated to Dee that if I'm lost, I want our BCP friends looking for me/us.

I agree with you!

From the CAP website:

Search and Rescue
Perhaps best known for its search-and-rescue efforts, CAP flies more than 85 percent of all federal inland search-and-rescue missions directed by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fl. Outside the continental United States, CAP supports the Joint Rescue Coordination Centers in Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Just how effective are the CAP missions? Nearly 100 people are saved each year by CAP members.



As the Air Force Auxiliary, like it or not, the CAP is going to be involved in search and rescue. They have the funding, equipment, procedures and volunteers to do the job. (Albeit poorly perhaps) As a former member, I too saw the "Frank Burns" types and wanna be generals. Some squadrons were great, some were horrible, some pilots were awesome and a couple were absolute tools. Since we are sort of stuck with the CAP for now, I was wondering if anyone has tried changing it from the inside. Many here seem to have skills the CAP desperately needs. I realize CAP is an unwieldy organization with its risk adverse Air Force masters and tons of rules (The reason I quit). If enough "normal" pilots show up and show interest and question the status quo, could we change the organization? If not, what next? If an organic SAR force is to be developed out of local pilots, how will it be organized, trained, financed and maintained?

A bunch of us jumping in our Supercubs and searching without detailed coordination, standardized search methods, (creeping line, expanding grid, etc) and communications, is asking for trouble. (Think midair or CFIT or missed search areas or duplicated searches) This is why the authorities are reluctant to have pilots with unverified skills, training and aircraft equipment enter the search. Imagine yourself in charge of this search...who would you let search and where? If someone showed up and you didn't know them and didn't know their aircraft, do you let them search just because they want to help? What is your liability? What if the unknown pilot wrecks or misses the target due to a poor SAR skill set? How do you verify a SAR skill set?

I would hope the local SAR coordinator would talk to local experts about how best to utilize assets and operate in areas they are less familiar with, even if the local experts are not allowed to be part of the actual search due to legal reasons. (I know this is not often the case)

I see lots of CAP bashing and not many solutions. Should we get congress involved? Engage CAP national? Do they even know how bad some of their squadrons or wings are at one of their core competencies? (SAR) How many here with bad personal experiences with the CAP have been members for any length of time? What did you do to try and fix problems you saw? Or did you just quit like I did?

I feel horrible for the folks in the Bonanza and pray they are found soon.

Jake

Blown56 wrote:Blown56 wrote:
STOL wrote
With that said I am going to get severe feedback on this observation but................ My gut feeling is there is a huge LDS connection /angle playing out on this crash...... Funny how "they" can mobilze a few hundred people and post a TFR, but most other crashes get a couple of searchers and small blurb in the local paper... IMHO....

Flame suit on.......

You are a genius ,we should all become Mormons and when we crash we will get special service.
Seriously , my prayers go out to them and there family. We picked an unforgiving thing to Love. Even with flight following , talking to salt lake , and a flight plan, there is no gurantee of safety.
really?????? are you guys for real???? I'm not a Mormon but I think that's going a bit far... and waaaay out there..
Iceman
I am LDS and and am pointing out how silly it sounds to attack someones religion at a time like this.
If I had saltlake on the radio and had engine failure ,and they had a radar fix . I feel it would be a priority even if I were a atheist.
Cheers

I was NOT attacking someone's religion, I was simply pointing out a known fact. Since, to my knowledge, there are no private owned Blackhawk helis, and there were two searching before the CAP plane arrived, then clearly there is a line of communication in place that someone was able to make a phone call and aquire those assests. I commend the LSD community of their tight knit organization and their ability to get things happening very quickly.. All SAR groups need to take lessons from that structure....One day it will save a life, or two ,and that cannot be dismissed.

When the crash of the Piper down in the heartland of LSD country, Filmore Utah happened. A few Blackhawks could have found poor Shay long before she expired of exposure. And maybe could have saved her mom too... IMHO.

Sorry Blown 56 that you mis interpreted my comment.. We all need to work together ya know...


Peace..

I don't believe it is only a matter of religion that influences if the cavalry is called.
I think it also can be your "profile", wealth, who you know, who the people you know-know, who you are related to, etc.
"Profile" being occupation, relationship to community, known by press and public, star or rising star in tech world, etc.
All this and more mix in an interesting unpredictable brew, but the more you have in your favor, the more likely you are to get the "full meal deal"....

I, too, live in a LDS rich community/area. There are some mighty good people in their ranks-but I wouldn't care to be one (that probably is a mark in their favor?). They tend to be hard workers with solid values, but their ranks are salted by a few scoundrels-just like any significant population or group. Overall, big kudos to them, tho.
LDS are well represented throughout the government and military. it is not unusual for that career progression to have been in spite of their religious affiliation. Anyhow, historically. I don't know about now, but it would surprise me if that has changed a lot.....

Yes, their combination/melding of religion and social structure is pretty tight knit. If you look at history, it shouldn't surprise you much.

We are getting pretty far off course, here, aren't we?
I , too, hope for a good outcome, but the reality of the situation is there is faint room for realistic hope.
At this point my thoughts and prayers go out to their loved ones.

I am going to state my . 02 cents in regards to this search and CAP.

I was with cap a few years and earned the rank of first Lietenant. Great organization and thought however I witnessed first hand that people are now using it for free flight and the ability to go fly. Many have not completed the necessary training to provide good tracking of elts and lack experience for successful tracks. I was involved in the search in Fillmore Ut. And was highly embarrassed. I have been involved in many search and rescue efforts in my career and knew of many features available to us which they did not know. After three days and thousands of dollars spent by cap flying around for three days the downed aircraft was found after 15 minutes of searching by the state uhp helicopter. How embarrassing for cap.

As for this search, I would hope cap has a good squadron up here who is proficient with their equipment. In addition to having directional sensing equipment if an elt is going off it can be tracked with some persistence and knowledge of the equipment. If the signal may be bouncing off mountains it is simple to home in on the signal by descending below the mountain line to block out the signal. If there is an elt they should have found it unless they don't know what they are doing.

As far as finding the wreckage without an elt is going to be impossible. You have a white aircraft that will be below trees and have been snowed on since it went down. White aircraft, below the trees (probable due to the area), snowed on since is going to make this search extremely difficult for eyes to pickup from the air.

I would hope with the information obtained from radar, cell phone triangulation and last know area for the signal to have pinged they can narrow it down. I then think ground crews and helicopters would be the best search to methodically search that area the best odds of finding them.

Gods bless cap and hopefully they have some guys in their squadron who know what they are doing. God knows in Utah most of the crews here and not skilled and proficient in my eyes.

I would like to have these types of searches to be run by the division of aeronautics and would hope they would setup an incident command and then if cap wanted to help great, but you never turn down help. If run by the division they could setup several types of searches by several different groups.

There's always going to be a contingent of CAP hate, even from those who've once worn the flight suits. And yes, it's a large organization full of it's own problems. However, one thing that we can all say for certain is many of us have some talents and/or resources that would be of great benefit to the CAP and would have a great effect on their ability to do their job.

Exactly! Hence why I believe that if the division of aeronautics ran the search we could all work with one another to get the job done. Hopefully we can fix this for future incidents and not rely solely on one organization.

God bless those involved in this incident!

C130jake I think everything you say is right on, which got me to reminiscing.

Decades ago my uncle founded/helped found a ground based SAR team in southern California. Over the years they became so well trained and proficient that they eventually were asked to become an auxiliary to the sheriffs department. A few more years and the sheriffs department was even supplying them with dedicated vehicles. As their reputation grew they were asked to assist in out of state SAR operations.

Perhaps like-minded backcountry pilots in our mountain states should get together and create the beginning of an airborne SAR team. It would require quite a commitment of discipline, time and money to become a properly trained effective group. And because there would no doubt be politics to overcome it require a real passion.

I certainly see the added value of tandem seating "SuperCub like" slow flying aircraft, pilot concentrates on flying his grid, observer concentrates on the actual search.

Heck, one of the finest moving maps, Foreflight, has built in SARs support. So you've got the best mountain pilots, the best mountain planes, and the best tools. Just need to be willing to set aside egos and make it happen - no easy task.

Washington has what you describe. http://www.wasar.org

Apparently though according to a Washington SAR report they have dwindled from 50 ish airplanes and 100 trained crews to 5 airplanes and 15ish trained crews.

lowflyinG3 wrote:Washington has what you describe. http://www.wasar.org

Looks exactly like what I had in mind, and an adjacent state. I would imagine they would be willing to provide their expertise/experience to assist in other state's pilots forming a similar organization. The process might even help rejuvenate their own organization.

Tough love here, time to quit whining and being part of the problem, and become part of the solution.

Since they began as a faction of the Washington Pilots Association I suppose that Idaho could begin as a faction of IAA. There is already a good working relationship between ITD-Aero and the association. Write letters........and make sure your membership is current first! lol
http://idahoaviation.com

The TFR just disappeared. Any new news?

the search in Fillmore Ut. I have been involved in many search and rescue efforts in my career and knew of many features available to us which they did not know. After three days and thousands of dollars spent by cap flying around for three days the downed aircraft was found after 15 minutes of searching by the state uhp helicopter. How embarrassing for cap.

I don't know if embarrassed is strong enough of a word.

I can't speak for nowdays, because I don't live there anymore, but it's amazing the difference in how we handled searches in Arctic Alaska back when, compared to what I see down here.

When an aircraft, or snow machine, hunter, boater would be overdue or put out a May Day call, absolutely everything routine in the entire area would come to a screeching halt. Pax on scheduled flights got turned into observers and routes diverted to the search area. Cargo/mail flights were cancelled, and we'd launch full of gas and empty to go look till we'd be on fumes. Every snow machine in the villages would head out to help.

We pushed wx, we flew at night, we nosed into the terrain to get close looks at where people might be, and most of all, we found people quickly. We put airplanes, equipment and people at risk, because it was just a matter of time before one of us doing the looking might be the next one to need the help.

The thought of turning away sets of eyeballs or local knowledge is unthinkable. Down here in Nevada I was at Ground Zero for the Steve Fossett search, which I think was the most expensive search in US history. All I can say is, that it was beyond disgusting watching that comedy play out. Thank goodness it wasn't a search for a family who were in a survivable crash waiting for rescue. Those bloated ego morons wouldn't have found them. And the sad thing is, they would have prevented those who could have from doing it.

Gump

SAR over the ocean gets complicated at USCG Sector Honolulu (District 14) at times. It dangerous and costly. The Auxiliary is held to approximately PART 135 standards. They pay us well and weed out the guys looking for free flights real quick. There is no rank or grades just skill levels when operating. I enjoyed it, found a lot people and boats/ships in my Aztec.

Damn, Gump. Well said. That puts a pretty fine point on it.

I don't have any personal experience to be a CAP basher, and I respect those well-intentioned CAP members who are spending their time trying to help rather than being in it for the ego stroke (few though they may be). I also recognize the difficulties associated with trying to incorporate a mass of unknown volunteers of varying skill levels into some sort of regimented search. That said, I remember how agonizing the whole Filmore crash and aftermath was for me--and I didn't even know anyone involved (I simply can't imagine the agony of Shyann's dad and others who were personally involved).

Ever since Filmore, every time I hear about a wreck I immediately assume another Shyann could be out there waiting for us to help come find her. I say "us" because I think we, as a community of pilots, share a common sense of responsibility to each other--the same motivating principle that led to the all-out efforts Gump described up north.

I don't know the best answer, but count me in for any solution that allows me to drop everything and do whatever I can to go try and help find the next Shyann.

The key to success is being found not hoping to be found. Carry every means you can afford to help yourself be found, if when needed. Also, self training is paramount in survival and safety gear ops.

Anybody shot a flare, inflated a raft, or entered a parallel search into their GPS lately? It seems easy until stuff hits the propeller.

This highlights again how much a flightplan, talking to ATC, having a 121.5 Beacon is worth. It's better than nothing but how much better you be the judge. I already have a SPO T, 121.5 in the airplane, and a 406 PLB. At annual this year in February I'm going to put a 406 in the airplane.

This also emphasizes how we are not free men in the USA anymore. Our government masters will not even allow us to help find a downed brother aviator.

The reason the Mormons are better at being involved is pure politics. Their church is very powerful in their states politics and that is a good thing. It seems to work in Idaho too. Good for them.

G,Day