Anyone have comments on this book?

http://www.crashandsurvive.com/crash_frame.htm

soyAnarchisto wrote:
121.5 is just a sine wave. No encoded position. The only way to find one is with triangulation with separate equipment.

Triangulation is not the only way you can find a 121.5 ELT
I have done a few search's and when you have the ping on your radio, you can keep turning 90 degrees and in just a bit you can find the weak side and the strong.
It takes a bit of playing with the volume and paying attention.
It is pretty effective when you are able to get a good signal
In the mtns it's pretty much LOS to find one.
Just my $.02

Well you guys have convinced me to just go activate my SPOT for the first time since I got it over six years ago.

Last year ShysDad convinced me to buy a SPOT. I'm glad I did. If you need to get rescued it's pretty cheap insurance. I also purchased the "pay for recovery insurance". I flew into Idaho's backcountry several times last summer and if nothing else, the SPOT gave my wife great comfort. I use it every time I fly, even locally. My wife loves the texts she receives every time I take off and land in the local Utah mountains, deserts and islands. And, if I ever do go down at least someone will know where to search. Even if I couldn't push the SOS button the footprints give a pretty good indication where I'm at.

The "Needle in a haystack" search in Idaho now is gut wrenching for the families. I've had several local non-flyers ask me about it and thank me for carrying my SPOT.

One trick I learned, tether the SPOT with a chord to the airframe in front of you. That way if you do crash you can find your SPOT. It won't go flying all around the cabin or outside into the snow, sagebrush or whatever.

I was wondering if anybody has an accurate number of how many people/planes have been found by the use of a 406 ELT in a wilderness situation? Just wondering how accuate it is in real life? Our 406 has a manual activiation button in the dash. Sounds like he knew ahead, for example if engine quit.....I would reach over and activate mine in that situation.....may not have time in all situations......then you have to rely on the G switch (impact). Does anyone know if he had a 406 or not? Also, I left my old 121 ELT in the plane and keep the batteries up in it, also. So, we have 2 seperate ELT systems. It is cold here in Oregon, 20 degrees, can't imagine being out overnight. Survival gear, survival gear!! Hope to GOD I never have to use mine! Hoping for the best and hoping they find them today.

"Authorities had earlier asked civilian volunteers to avoid the search area, but on Thursday opened the effort to volunteer pilots who may wish to use their own aircraft. Those interested in doing so were asked to first call Smith at 208-382-7319."
This is from the Salt Lake Tribune. Last year when Shy was missing, they would not allow this. I raised HOLY HELL with everybody and apparently they listened. So if anyone is in the area and can lend assistance please do so. The family needs our help and if I was a pilot with an aircraft I would drop everything and go help them...God BLess....

I was wondering if anybody has an accurate number of how many people/planes have been found by the use of a 406 ELT in a wilderness situation?

ACR Artex, which makes PLBs and such, has a series of articles (sort of a blog) about saves; don't know if it totals them.

Using the belt and suspenders principle, I still have a portable 121.5 ELT in my survival pack, plus 2 ACR PLB Res-Q-Links (bought one, won one (the + model) from ACR), and I had one of the first Artex ME406 ELTs installed in my airplane as soon as they were authorized for sale. Originally the ELT wasn't connected to a GPS, because my handheld didn't have the connection possibilities, but when I had the 430W installed 1 1/2 years ago, I had the ELT connected to it, so it's constantly updated as long as the 430W is on. I'm always assuming:

A. I won't need all that stuff.
B. If I do go down, I'll do it softly enough that I need to be rescued.
C. If I need to be rescued, I'd like it to happen as quickly as possible.

I don't think AOPA and EAA have done anyone any service by objecting to mandatory 406 ELTs, as both the FAA and the FCC want to do. Let's face it; until it's mandated, many aircraft owners won't install a 406. Especially those of us who fly in the wilderness-like areas of our country need to realize that 406 ELT technology is so much better than 121.5/243 ELT technology.

*For one very important thing, 121.5/243 ELTs are no longer monitored by the satellites (stopped February 2009).
*121.5 is regularly monitored only by the airlines. FARs encourage every pilot to monitor 121.5 "when practicable", but in fact many pilots don't.
*406 technology allows much closer locating, even without being connected to a GPS, something on the order of 100 meters radius.
*When connected to a GPS, the locating is as close as 10 meters radius.
*406 technology isn't as affected by the rocks that we fly through.

I think all of us assume it won't happen to us, but in fact it will to some of us. It's a matter of being better prepared if it does.

Cary

The problem is that it is Thursday... It is now very likely this is a recovery mission. They basically told people that could help to stay away for the first three days. Frustrating.

SkySteve wrote:

Well you guys have convinced me to just go activate my SPOT for the first time since I got it over six years ago.

One trick I learned, tether the SPOT with a chord to the airframe in front of you. That way if you do crash you can find your SPOT. It won't go flying all around the cabin or outside into the snow, sagebrush or whatever.

Another trick I've heard that people will do is to clip the Spot on their shoulder strap, which would be easy access. Just not sure how much the signal would be blocked by high wings. I'm guessing if you flew a few times with it there and if you see that your positions are still being received, you'd be ok. And yes! Activate it on the way down if you can!

For any of us nearby; they DO NOT WANT OUTSIDE AIRCRAFT.
Just called the number and asked about heading up there and was told that there was a miscommunication and that they don't want other help due to the conditions.
Be advised.

Cary wrote:

*121.5 is regularly monitored only by the airlines. FARs encourage every pilot to monitor 121.5 "when practicable", but in fact many pilots don't.


Cary

I think you'd be surprised how many people are always monitoring guard...primarily airline pilots. The next time you go flying, make a lap in the pattern broadcasting on guard. I'll bet you a dollar that the guard nazis are on you before you complete a landing.

It is my company's policy that we monitor guard and I hear this scenario all the time...with prompt response from someone monitoring guard...(usually not in the most professional manner, in my opinion, i.e. guard nazis). In fact, I encourage people to make a blind call if you are going down and not in contact with any type of flight following. There is a very good chance you'll reach someone and be able to give them your position and any other information that you have time to pass on. Just another tool to have in your bag.

The other testament that it is being monitored is how many airline pilots, and charter pilots, you hear calling in range on guard. I'm guessing they figure it out when the responding voice (usually another pranking airline pilot) rogers the call and then relays the message that they are to call crew scheduling when they get on the ground.

lowflyinG3 wrote:For any of us nearby; they DO NOT WANT OUTSIDE AIRCRAFT.
Just called the number and asked about heading up there and was told that there was a miscommunication and that they don't want other help due to the conditions.
Be advised.

FN AssHoles!!
What can be done about this!! I was willing to go the next day!
Who do we need to talk to to do away with this way of thinking?
Who has given them the lawful right to do this!!
This is the Idaho Division Not the CAP who put up the TFR!
Anyone have any suggestions, I would be interested in finding out how to get this to stop!!
Any Legal Beagles out there that can help?? Hell I'll donate to the fund if there is anyway to make it happen.

lowflyinG3 wrote:For any of us nearby; they DO NOT WANT OUTSIDE AIRCRAFT.
Just called the number and asked about heading up there and was told that there was a miscommunication and that they don't want other help due to the conditions.
Be advised.

You gotta be !@#$% kidding me.

I'm an hour and a half away and have SAR training and experience. I was just checking the weather and cancelling my dentist appointment.

Direction finding via triangulation is not the way satellites find position. Triangulation with dipoles as mentioned above is little better than what is accomplished by Doppler analysis from the satellite network.

The reasons 406 is better than 121.5 are interesting, but technical. The bottom line is that the search area with a dumb (non-GPS) 406 MHz ELT is very often *less than 1% of the search area of a 121.5 MHz ELT.* It is also a more reliable signal on several fronts...but especially because there is vastly less "noise" on the band to set off false alarms, has a digital packet for verification that it is coming from a specific aircraft, has vastly less backscatter and ionospheric lensing, etc. What does that mean? When the 406 ELT goes off, and it is a usable signal, people jump into action very quickly. Adding GPS can nearly completely take the search out of search and rescue...the search area can be as small as 4/100,000ths of a good 121.5 search.

All these fancy devices detract from the real issues here though.

My thoughts are with the families affected. From personal experience, closure for family is hard enough process without strangers pointing fingers in these tragic events.

That irritates the living crap outta me..I just posted what the article said. Because of search protocols (again) more people may die. The only way I have found to change anything is too make a crapload of noise. Maybe pilots screaming about this will help. If anyone needs help in this pursuit let me know, I am in and will not hesitate to get in ear about this. This is an important issue.

Yeah, I don't know. The guy was very nice in turning me down and said that they had been receiving a bunch of calls about offers of help (maybe due to this thread).
Too bad as it looks about as good as it's going to get today. Next storm headed in tomorrow.
Probably is a pain in the ass for them to decipher who could belong up there with them and who shouldn't. I would think a proper line of questioning and frequency advisory would suffice.
Not formally trained in SAR myself but I feel that a guy that has local Sheriff's department aerial SAR saves documented, 13,000 hours of low altitude experience flying ag, a knowledge of that area from flying all over it for the last nine years, coming up in a Cessna 180 on wheel-skis with another 2.5 hours of fuel on board after the ferry flight could easily be told what freq to talk on and what box to fly in...........
Maybe not though.

I think you'd be surprised how many people are always monitoring guard...primarily airline pilots.

Exactly what I said, right?

Cary

Here is the rules regarding searches in Idaho.
http://adminrules.idaho.gov/rules/current/39/0407.pdf

The one thing that counts in a search like this is eyeballs. Let's hope that is happening.

It is interesting that if you are allowed in to help in search efforts that you become a quasi-state employee protected under workmen's comp. Probably part of the complexity......
DEFINITIONS.
01. Aerial Search and Rescue Funding. A dedicated source defined in Section 21-114, Idaho Code, derived from airman registration fees. (11-28-90)
02. Aerial Search and Rescue Volunteer. One who volunteers services for humanitarian relief. When accepted in support of SAR missions, SAR volunteer shall become quasi-state employee and be protected by state workman’s compensation insurance. (11-28-90)
03. Aerial Search and Rescue Volunteer Aircraft. A civil aircraft voluntarily made available to be used in aerial search and rescue operations. (11-28-90)
04. Aerial Search and Rescue Volunteer Pilot/Observer. A pilot/observer qualified in accordance with the Idaho Transportation Department Aerial Search and Rescue Manual. (11-28-90)
05. AFRCC. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center, the single agency through which federal SAR missions will be prosecuted and federal assistance requested for SAR in the inland region. It is a coordinating agency only. (11-28-90)
06. Airman/Airmen. Any individual who engages, as the person in command or as pilot, mechanic, or member of the crew, in the navigation of aircraft while underway. For the purpose of this regulation, search shall be

ShysDad wrote:That irritates the living crap outta me..I just posted what the article said. Because of search protocols (again) more people may die. The only way I have found to change anything is too make a crapload of noise. Maybe pilots screaming about this will help. If anyone needs help in this pursuit let me know, I am in and will not hesitate to get in ear about this. This is an important issue.

Ya know ShysDad, this may be an opportunity for you get someone of authority in the community at large to actually sit up and pay attention to this situation. The nightmare you went through gives you credibility with the news organizations, because they feed off drama and suffering. Call around to the bigger Boise TV stations and newspapers, and get your story to a reporter or two, then segue it into the current situation up at Yellow Pine, pointing out how valuable time and resources are being wasted while families are dying.

Then maybe hint that the state representatives might need to be involved to reign in these dipshits running CAP. Congressmen and Senators don't listen to the likes of us, but they do listen to TV reporters asking why someone's kids died because of Government redtape and bullshit.

Gump