A1Skinner wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:Why not a 182? You can get an straight tail 182 that will do what you want, be cheap to insure, and below 50k...

182 has the wrong wheel configuration unless you are Skalywag!

Ya it does, but it's cheap, gets you flying, and meets your mission very well. I fly a 180, but if it came down to it, I'd get a 182 if that meant I could fly twice as much.

For the price of a good 182 I could get an M4 or 170B - I just don't know enough about the M4 honestly to feel educated. There is one on Barnstormers with the 220 Franklin (which I personally like) for $40k but they have the round tail with less rudder capability and limited elevator movement.

TxAgfisher wrote:

fiftynineSC wrote:I might have missed it, but what's your budget?

I see concerns about $$ for insurance, fuel consumption, etc.... For a sub 100 hour pilot, insurance on a Maule is going to be high regardless, same with a C180/C185.

If you can afford more money up front (finance), you can get a plane that does 80% of it. Some with less insurance cost and fuel cost than a 6 cylinder anything. Your 2 people but mostly solo requirement is a plus. I'd warn though that insurance and fuel is rarely a huge part of overall aircraft ownership.

Bill

I've been researching it and fuel burn + insurance are the unknowns. Fuel will depend on how much I'm at the controls obviously, but payment after 20+% down isn't that much/month. I'm thinking more long term - overhaul on 360 vs 540 etc. Insurance will likely be the biggest variable.

Hangar wI'll be free if I get to move back to Houston because I would build one at the ranch and keep the plane there.

Fuel, maintenance, oil, insurance, annual, payment, hangar - what else?

My cost of ownership has unfortunately been dominated by repairs/maintenance from lots of off road stuff and expensive annuals. Unexpected repairs. It may be a combination of bad luck, poor judgment, "no expense spared" mentality, or the fact that 40 plus year old cessnas can be tricky on maintenance. May not be others experience but it's been mine for the 4 planes I've owned.

The field length will be a challenge early on until you get proficient, and with the heat in south Texas, but I think a 150 hp late model pacer would be a good fit. Plus, if you can learn to fly a pacer well, there won't be many TW airplanes you can't transition to easily. I know that first hand.

Money, it's only money...

Price listings from ACA and Cessna:

Example: (12) volt cigarette lighter adapter kit with drawings

Cessna Aircraft: $1800.00

American Champion Aircraft: $40.00

My cost of ownership has unfortunately been dominated by repairs/maintenance from lots of off road stuff and expensive annuals. Unexpected repairs. It may be a combination of bad luck, poor judgment, "no expense spared" mentality, or the fact that 40 plus year old cessnas can be tricky on maintenance. May not be others experience but it's been mine for the 4 planes I've owned.

The field length will be a challenge early on until you get proficient, and with the heat in south Texas, but I think a 150 hp late model pacer would be a good fit. Plus, if you can learn to fly a pacer well, there won't be many TW airplanes you can't transition to easily. I know that first hand.

I would be interested in a 180hp Pacer, just can't afford to short side myself with hp and not be able to get out of our place.

I'll throw in a vote for the M4-210. It will do all the things you have listed, and do them pretty well. With the back seat out, it is a great 2 + cargo airplane with a big cargo door. And flying it light by yourself is a real kick in the pants. It's a fun airplane that is very capable, yet honest enough to be a great tailwheel timebuilder.

A nice one with a low time engine can be bought well below your budget point, therefore leaving room for a little higher insurance premium. Insurance will drop some after the first year (without a claim) and will eventually get down to $800-$1000/yr (without a claim).

I've owned a 180hp 170B and 2 M4-210s and I personally prefer the Maule. It's a lot of value and performance for the money. There are 2 M4s in my hangar right now that I'd be glad to introduce you to.

Ross

TxAgfisher wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:[quote="A1Skinner"]Why not a 182? You can get an straight tail 182 that will do what you want, be cheap to insure, and below 50k...

182 has the wrong wheel configuration unless you are Skalywag!

Ya it does, but it's cheap, gets you flying, and meets your mission very well. I fly a 180, but if it came down to it, I'd get a 182 if that meant I could fly twice as much.

For the price of a good 182 I could get an M4 or 170B - I just don't know enough about the M4 honestly to feel educated. There is one on Barnstormers with the 220 Franklin (which I personally like) for $40k but they have the round tail with less rudder capability and limited elevator movement.[/quote]
The M4s are very capable. Especially with the 220 on it. They are little rockets set up that way. Iceman on the forum drives one. Maybe PM him for info on it.

Ross, can you shoot me some info?

My email is:

jvmlandscaping at sbcglobal.net

TxAgfisher wrote:.....but they have the round tail with less rudder capability and limited elevator movement.

You're getting bad intel....
The plane will need more pilot before it needs a bigger tail.

TxAgfisher wrote:Ross, can you shoot me some info?

My email is:

jvmlandscaping at sbcglobal.net

Be glad to.

Here's the way I'm looking at it, maybe it'll help:

I'm just about at the point where I feel comfortable paying cash for a Pacer or early Maule and still have ample reserves. Or I could spend my money financing a mid level 180 or Maule. Seeing as how the majority of my flying is solo, with my wife and unborn son, or a buddy right now, I don't need a bunch of power or lots of space here at sea level. And my longest average cross country will only be 2.5 hours at 120 mph. For at least the next 10-15 years, a smaller plane is all I need. If we end up doing a good bit of traveling and start running out of space, by that point I should have the money saved up to buy a real nice 180 if needed.

TxAgfisher wrote:

My cost of ownership has unfortunately been dominated by repairs/maintenance from lots of off road stuff and expensive annuals. Unexpected repairs. It may be a combination of bad luck, poor judgment, "no expense spared" mentality, or the fact that 40 plus year old cessnas can be tricky on maintenance. May not be others experience but it's been mine for the 4 planes I've owned.

The field length will be a challenge early on until you get proficient, and with the heat in south Texas, but I think a 150 hp late model pacer would be a good fit. Plus, if you can learn to fly a pacer well, there won't be many TW airplanes you can't transition to easily. I know that first hand.

I would be interested in a 180hp Pacer, just can't afford to short side myself with hp and not be able to get out of our place.

More horsepower is good, for sure. Not knowing the actual obstructions at your strip, it would be hard to say if a stock pacer wouldn't work. I do have direct experience with my old 135 hp pacer though. Solo with full gas in the summer I often landed in under 800 feet and got off in the same. Operated out of a legit 1200' that was no more than mowed pasture...rough. Just FYI. 150 horse pacer with 8.50's and VG's is a slick ride.

Dollar for dollar if you could crowd 50k I'd still buy the nicest Maule you can find. Any model. Don't believe the hype about one models "limitations" over another. They are all better than the guy operating it.

Good luck, hope to see you flying in south Texas soon.

I've had my eye on an M5-235 with the Lycoming 540. It's not on the market but will be and he wants $65k for it. Super sharp plane.

If you were looking at an M4-210/220 for $40k vs an M5-235 for $65k is there an obvious choice?

Sounds like you want a hunting and fishing machine?

A tidy interior and tailplane gets banged up pretty darn quick doing that kind of work. Unless you're only going to proper airstrips and are a super meticulous kind of person when it comes to keeping it clean, being careful with loading and unloading gear, etc. it might not be worth spending the extra $25k so you can decrease the value down to 40k yourself

$25,000 pays for a LOT of insurance and fuel = extra hunting and fishing trips next year. That's in the order of 400 - 600 hrs gas depending on what you pay for it.

fiftynineSC wrote:More horsepower is good, for sure. Not knowing the actual obstructions at your strip, it would be hard to say if a stock pacer wouldn't work. I do have direct experience with my old 135 hp pacer though. Solo with full gas in the summer I often landed in under 800 feet and got off in the same. Operated out of a legit 1200' that was no more than mowed pasture...rough. Just FYI. 150 horse pacer with 8.50's and VG's is a slick ride.

Dollar for dollar if you could crowd 50k I'd still buy the nicest Maule you can find. Any model. Don't believe the hype about one models "limitations" over another. They are all better than the guy operating it.

Good luck, hope to see you flying in south Texas soon.

No hard numbers as I'm still working on technique, but I've got a slightly modified 160 up pacer with VGs and get off pretty short. With a 74/60 prop. Not the prop I'd choose to operate from your strip, probably could get much shorter with a flatter prop.

RWM wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:.....but they have the round tail with less rudder capability and limited elevator movement.

You're getting bad intel....
The plane will need more pilot before it needs a bigger tail.

Agreed.

Sounds like you're making your decisions based on things you read on a forum somewhere (maybe this one). Not all bad, but most airplanes will outperform their drivers.

Many airplanes can operate out of 1000', but do they NEED to do it 100% of the time??? If you're gonna be 2up with gear to the headliner, can't you just meet your buddy with his gear at the closest airport with a longer runway? Making 2 trips is always an option, which might cost more time and money at the time, but you save it by not needing the bigger plane and all that goes along with it.

Also, it seems that many people treat an airplane purchase as a "one time deal" that you're stuck with for the rest of your life! Buy smart, but if it doesn't work out, SELL IT!! At least at that point you can make a more informed decision as to what you really need in the future....and at least this way you're flying and gaining experience now, instead of endless pondering of "what airplane is right for me". Yes it's a PITA doing it this way, but what isn't a PITA in real life?!?!

As far as Mx goes, its a crapshoot no matter what you end up with...so like I mentioned earlier, buy smart. My advice is to make friends with the local mechanics. If you're mechanically inclined and develop a relationship with a local A&P/IA, you can save some serious $$$. If they charge you $80, give them $100...it'll pay off later.

My 2 cents anyway. Good Luck!

This is a great discussion. You are in the exact same conundrum I am in. A nice early straight tail 182 makes the most sense, but...

The 210hp and 220hp Maules seem to be out there for not a lot of cash and you get one helluva performing airplane. As I understand it, the IO-360 210hp in the Maules are more expensive at overhaul and the 220 Franklin might be difficult to find parts and to find someone to work on it. Just what I have read, absolutely no experience with either. Plus, you get to harass everyone and bombard the forum with "just buy a Maule" comments and look down your nose at the spam cans. An added bonus.

The Pacers are awesome. Never flown in one, but they seem to be a pretty respectable backcountry bird when properly set up. They are all over the place for $30-40k. I am not crazy about the lack of a pilot door, but there is an STC for some slick seaplane doors. Not sure what they would cost you. There are a ton of nice mods for the Pacer out there. There is a pretty sweet Pacer right now in the "For Sale" thread.

Had the pleasure to fly with Rob56W in his super sweet C-170B. A fantastic airplane that would do pretty much anything that I will ever do with it. With the Sportsman and the 8042 prop, it is a pretty mean machine. There aren't many 180hp 170B's out there for sale. Maybe that says something about the 170B with a 180hp.

There is a pretty cool Stinson 108-3 for sale on Barnstormers with a 180hp O-360 for $45k. From the pictures, it looks like an awefully nice airplane. The Stinsons are super cool, but never flown one. The Franklin engine discussion applies here too, as most Stinsons I have seen have Franklins with the exception of a few out there with 360s and 470s.

The Cessna 180/185s or the 235 Maules are incredible airplanes. Neither of which are in my price point. I have seen a handful of both closer to $50k than to $75k. Like you, I think that insurance and operating costs put them out of where I want to be.

Wait a sec...I think that I just talked myself into a 210hp Maule.

Not a day goes by that I don't scour Barnstormers and Trade-a-Plane. I am just waiting for Uncle Sam to tell me if I am headed back to the Middle East for two years or to sunny Tampa, Florida. If I get orders to Tampa, the official search will begin.

But then again, I don't know shit. I am just a 200 hr pilot that is soaking up everything I can from everyone on here far smarter and more experienced than me!

This a great thread. I would be interested to hear from anyone out there with a 210hp or 220hp Maule.

I don't have any IO360 experience but I asked Lycon about the IO360 being more expensive to overhaul. They so no, costs the same as any other 6-cylinder engine.

I really like the looks of the M4 and wanted one badly. I got a quote for insurance and that put an end to it.

Regarding insurance cost on a Maule...
I think this is something that varies widely between companies/agents. I know of guys that have paid $4-$5000 a year for a low time pilot premium. I believe those people just didn't shop in the right place. Good coverage can be had for less. An M4 was my first TW plane and I paid $2000 the first year. That covered all of North America and Off Airport. I sold that same airplane to a friend that was a student pilot. He got insured for sure less than $2500 as a student with 15-20 hrs TT and no TW time for a $50k hull. It was a great first airplane and he still flies it today. My latest renewal for an MX7 was about $1500 for a $100k hull. The premiums decrease as experience level goes up.

But like I stated earlier, the extra $1000-2000 in insurance premium that you will spend on your first year is compensated by the lower cost of entry (compared to similar planes). It is really hard to find another +200 hp, four seat, STOL, taildragger with great utility at the same price point as the M4. Maule maintenance is really reasonable, too.

And another note, you don't need to spend a bunch of money on mods for an M4. Spend your money on gas and oil. It really doesn't need anything else. VGs are good for $695 and bushwheels if you need em. Otherwise, the best performance will come from spending time in it rather than money on it.

new pilot here under 300 hrs, 182 fits the bill, put airglass fork and 29 mains and 8.50 nose wheel and it would go lots of places and an early pre 61 will have near 1000 gross. all for 30-40k. my insurance is 900 a year for 75k hull
tw conversion is like 12-15k so i have heard do the tw later

Another thing to consider is moGas vs avgas. Few of the planes mentioned are avgas only. That adds a fair bit of operating costs.