I'm flying a 205 with twin KX155s, with a CDI, a Nav Indicator, a Marker beacon, a DG, a Garmin 296, and an Ipad with WingX with ADS-B in. Very basic, and somewhat old, though functional.

I've got about 500 hours, fly about 75 hours per year, and haven't started an instrument rating yet. Occasionally, it would be nice to have one. Most of my flying is in decent weather, from April-October, during the day. Perhaps a half dozen times a year, it would be really helpful to be able to either depart or arrive on instruments, usually near the coast, Seattle, or Portland.

I need to upgrade to ADS-B equipment in the near future. In a perfect world, I'd also add an autopilot, a WAAS navigator, dual G5s, etc at the same time. The budget strongly prohibits that, so perhaps I could add something that would increase safety and ease the mind enough to comfortably pursue an instrument rating.

At this point, I'm conflicted about the equipment that would cost effectively minimize the risks associated with instrument flying. What equipment is the most important to you and why?

I'm sure you'll get some good replies but here is a thread with some good stuff.

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/bare-bones-ifr-panel-check-that-glass-w-waas-gps-16405

For instrument training you want and will be expected to fly all the approaches. That means renting for ILS, ADF, and GPS. I was comfortable and safe in NG helicopters with only the ADF. You are capable of VOR approaches anywhere and PAR at a military field in an emergency.

I expect the early instrument capable GPS radio/nav units are available cheaply now. One unit would give you good radio communication and all the approaches. I am old and thick headed, but I almost learned the early Garmin before I quit instrument instruction.

For instrument work, two fair radios are about 1/1000th as good as one good radio. Clear communications are a must have.

As mentioned, you'll need to do a precision approach for your instrument rating. Which sounds like you can't do, given your set up.

I recently bought 2 G5's, GNS430 (non-waas) and some other trinkets. I'm already above $10G's. I haven't installed any of it yet, and will have a nice labor bill for the IA who is helping me. (more like me helping him hold the flashlight, like a kid does on an old jeep...)

With that said, I'll have the ability to shoot ILS and LNAV/VNAV approaches. It's all about niceties for me, and not must have's.


I highly, highly, highly, recommend getting an instrument rating regardless if you update your bird.
Once you have the rating you can use what you have without much issue. Well, legally you can do it, but you can't fly direct anywhere and may be limited in scope of where you can go, if you are flying by the Cascades/Coastals.

First of all, look at FAR 91.205, which lists minimum required equipment:

(b)Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Airspeed indicator.

(2) Altimeter.

(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

(4) Tachometer for each engine.

(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.

(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.

(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.

(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.

(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.

(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, “shore” means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.

(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device, or other approved restraint system for each occupant 2 years of age or older.

(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness or restraint system for each front seat. For small civil airplanes manufactured after December 12, 1986, an approved shoulder harness or restraint system for all se ats. Shoulder harnesses installed at flightcrew stations must permit the flightcrew member, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph -

(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and

(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flightcrew member station or any seat located alongside such a seat.

(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by § 91.207.

(16) [Reserved]

(17) For rotorcraft manufactured after September 16, 1992, a shoulder harness for each seat that meets the requirements of § 27.2 or § 29.2 of this chapter in effect on September 16, 1991.

(c)Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

(d)Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in § 121.305(j) of this chapter; and

(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with § 29.1303(g) of this chapter.

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).


So, in addition to what you noted, you'll need an artificial horizon, a directional gyro, a slip skid indicator, etc. as noted above.

Radios as appropriate.....can mean a lot of things, but these days, you'll have to demonstrate at least competency with VOR navigation, VOR/ILS approaches, ARNAV (GPS) approaches at the very least. You can probably demonstrate the NDB approach on a simulator, But you're going to have to have a VOR system with glide slope and some form of LEGAL ARNAV (GPS) system, preferably one that can be used for precision approaches.

Also, go through all those other items above....like a clock.....it's all got to be there.

MTV

I’m just going down the same road with a skinny IFR plane. For practical use, you may or may not be comfortable with your plane’s equipment for enroute, approaches, departures or any combination. I’m assuming you have the instruments and were only listing your nav equipment. The regs only require nav equipment suitable for the route, it doesn’t mean a lot of things it means exactly what it says. Just an NDB can satisfy that in some places. Those are the facts, I’ll bow out of the opinion conversation because I don’t have the experience. I personally feel comfortable with my skinny equipment AND my iPad for situational awareness for enroute, but I’m not ready to shoot an approach to min on my own.

For the check ride, read the ACS and pay attention to the skills that you must demonstrate. Precision and non-precision. Not RNAV and DME, not NDB and LORAN (I’ve got that box, it’s for sale make an offer!). My flight school used to placard the ADF inop for checkrides... If you plan on using your plane for the checkride buy equipment that can shoot a precision approach, I have a premo Narco NAV12 that I would part with for the right price. Alternatively, learn in your plane and rent something for the last few hours and take the ride in that.

To summarize, run what you brung and start learning to fly. Figure out later what is important and useful for you. As a fall back, this place is not short on people that will help you spend your money. I figure I’ll get a G5 with the money from selling my LORAN and a GTN650 from my NAV12 proceeds. I’ll probably put whatever is left into the gas tank.

(Obligatory: I will donate a portion of any sale resulting from this post to BCP)

Check out some of the deals Aspen has right now if you’re considering dual G5’s.
They have a basic setup that can be upgraded to their full Pro synthetic vision rig via software later on.
Could be a way to deferr cost.

MTV needs to write an article on PIFR, Pretend IFR, similar to his very good PVFR article. In my day the navigation equipment was quite simple and single mission and could be operated with big knobs. They have taken the simplicity of single mission and installed a computer. They have taken most of the non directional beacons. I really miss always knowing (it continuously points to the station) which way is home. A computer does everything and, for a klutz, nothing.

I don't fly or teach instrument anymore. If I did it would be PIFR. Don't fly PIFR. That would be dangerous.

Aside from your plane being capable of IFR flight, you also need to train and prepare yourself. I encourage every pilot regardless of their end flying goal to get an Instrument Rating. It will make you a better all around pilot and better participant in the busy airspaces. It sounds like you are already on this track.

There is a big difference between IFR Rated and Instrument proficient. Single Pilot IFR (SPIFR) can be very task saturated, especially if you get behind the machine. That all said, it sounds like you have the basic equipment to practice approaches and even work toward an Instrument Rating. I also encourage everyone to have a plan for going Inadvertent IMC. Practice your plan, know your plane, go through the transition from visual to instruments and even getting a Pop-UP IFR back home, even if VMC.

The PNW is the perfect place to be able to punch through a layer in or out of an airport. This week has been especially rough shooting CAT III's to 600RVR in SEA. The coast can be a separate challenge especially in Winter where the MEA's put you into Icing, but anything between YYJ and PDX is usually pretty easy most of the year.

I think it’s less important what gadgets you have or how much you’ve spent, than it is that what you have is rock solid and you as the pilot are proficient in using them. Before glass cockpits and GPS, pilots flew for decades with basic steam gauges. So, if that’s all you have or the budget will allow, make sure they work and you know how to use them. Everything beyond that is gravy.

Assuming that your instruments meet the IFR requirements that Mike quoted from the regs, you can get by with what you have (I'm assuming when you said a KX155 with a CDI, you meant that it included a glide slope receiver--that CDI would be more appropriately called a VOR/LOC/GS indicator; and a KX155 with a nav indicator, you meant that it shows only VOR/LOC). In other words, it appears that you have basic VOR and ILS capable nav/coms typical of your airplane's era. That's enough to be legal, if those nav/coms work well; that's very important (problematic nav/coms in the soup are a real no-no).

You'll find, however, that for the area of the PNW that you're concerned about, having a WAAS GPS will make a huge, HUGE difference in your comfort level. So although what you have is minimally sufficient for your training, you really will want to upgrade for the real world of IFR flying in the PNW. Today's IFR world has very definitely moved to GPS approaches and "direct-to" GPS navigation, so that what is still technically legal is really much more difficult to use on a regular basis.

You can get by with a non-WAAS GPS, but I wouldn't recommend it, as the WAAS GPS opens up the ability to fly to precision minimums in most cases, something that can be very important in the PNW, whereas a non-WAAS GPS means non-precision minimums. You'll learn the difference in your training. The cost to upgrade a non-WAAS GPS to WAAS capability isn't all that bad (a few AMUs) if you already own it, but it's better to start with a WAAS GPS when you're upgrading from having no GPS at all.

All in, depending on your ability to source used avionics, you'll spend something approaching $13,000 for a used WAAS GPS nav/com, installed. When I had my new 430W installed 5 1/2 years ago, I had a new PS Engineering 4000B audio panel installed at the same time. Mine was one of the very last 430Ws made by Garmin; a used one today is only about $1000 less than what I paid for a new one. My total bill out the door was $15,000 for both installations, so roughly $10,000 for the boxes and $5,000 for the labor to install them. I did some shopping around at the time, and there were lower all-in prices available, but any lower prices would have meant flying the airplane to a distant installer, so the cost of going back and forth would have added to the lower prices--end result would have been about the same, and any glitches (there were a couple) would have meant going back again at my expense. So that should give you a ballpark idea of what it will cost to upgrade your airplane.

I certainly echo others' comments, that the IR is pretty important. You'll be a better pilot, and especially if you stay current, you'll be a much safer pilot. Because of where I live, I don't have much local need for my IR, but I do stay current, primarily by having an IPC instead of trying to do it with a safety pilot. My need for currency occurs when I go on longer cross countries. From my perspective, an IPC is not only a test to see if I can do it, but also a lesson that irons out any wrinkles in my skills and knowledge. I use an instructor that I've been flying with for about 15 years now, who is pleasant enough to fly with, but who won't give away anything. I trust him to keep me honest.

There's a whole lot to learn. The FAA pubs are online (the Instrument Flying Handbook and the Instrument Procedures Handbook), but there are a lot of other texts worth getting. I strongly recommend Richard Taylor's Instrument Flying and Bob Buck's Weather Flying as two that you should obtain.

Good luck!

Cary

I've flown a lot of IFR over the years and I find that the longer I fly the more risk-averse I get when it comes to IFR in single engine pistons. Sure I do it but I always have an out. My basic philosophy for IFR in my 180 is this:

1. Always, always, always be able to get to VMC before I run out of daylight and gas. (That's right, I never fly at night)
2. Avoid prolonged hard IFR to the max extent possible.
3. Avoid ice and embedded convection at all costs.

As far as equipment, here's what I have in my 180, broken down into "must have" (for me) plus "nice to have." Then a list of things I "don't have" that I'd like to have.

Must have:
-- Two separate sources of attitude info (I have an Aspen PFD and an old vacuum-driven gyro). I've had two gyro/vacuum failures in about 1000 hours of flying piston airplanes that had such systems. Fortunately both have been VMC and I had the Aspen with one of them.
-- WAAS GPS. I hear what the folks say above; they're probably right about needing VOR / ILS. But I rarely if ever shoot those types of approaches in my 180. Check out this link: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/ifp_inventory_summary/. There are 3956 LPV and 1550 ILS lines of approach minima in the US today. And many of those ILSs are at places you probably won't go, like DFW and O'Hare. NDB? Forget it.
-- A single VHF comm radio. One that always works and sounds good.
-- Datalink weather. ADS-B In or XM doesn't matter, but you'll need one of them.
-- All the stuff MTV laid out above.

Nice to have:
-- A second VHF comm. Useful for monitoring ASOS, listening to traffic, monitoring 121.5, etc.
-- iPad or similar. I guess you can still use paper. What a PITA. My fave is an iPad with ForeFlight.
-- A backup for your iPad. Could be paper, could be an iPhone, etc.
-- A good handheld comm radio, and I have a plug in my 180 where I can plug my handheld into the aircraft antenna.
-- A second nav display in case my primary nav display (the bottom half of the Aspen) failed for some reason.

Wish I had:
-- An autopilot. If I did, I might be more willing to drive around in IMC. As it is, I usually get on top or between a layer and stay there.
-- A hard-wired USB charger. I use a cigarette lighter adapter. You definitely need some way to charge gadgets.
-- A second alternator (or at least a second alternator belt). All that belt has to do is break and I'm down to a 30-min aircraft battery and the backup in my Aspen. See Rule #1 at the top!

One other thing. It takes work to stay current. You either have to seek out IMC or have a buddy that you fly with regularly. Whatever you do, train like you fight. Don't stay current in the sim and then decide to launch on a hard IFR day when you haven't been doing much of it.

Here's my panel. I have since mounted the iPad to the yoke and yanked out the 496. But placement of stuff is important. The less head movement, the better. The closer your backup scan replicates your primary scan, the better!

Good luck!

https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/4537/3490/75cf762cedf1b65096601457.jpg

Nice set up: ILS/VOR, RNAV, 2nd NAV/COM, S-TEC 20

Outside of training this meets basic IFR.

Prosaria wrote:….I figure I’ll get a G5 with the money from selling my LORAN and a GTN650 from my NAV12 proceeds. I’ll probably put whatever is left into the gas tank......

Really? Priced this stuff lately?
Or did you forget to post the winky face?

jcadwell wrote:….Perhaps a half dozen times a year, it would be really helpful to be able to either depart or arrive on instruments, usually near the coast, Seattle, or Portland. ....

Are you gonna work to stay proficient all year long for those half dozen IFR flights?
And I don't just mean "current", as spelled out in the FARs.

VTOSS wrote:.....There is a big difference between IFR Rated and Instrument proficient. Single Pilot IFR (SPIFR) can be very task saturated, especially if you get behind the machine.......

slowmover wrote:…. It takes work to stay current. You either have to seek out IMC or have a buddy that you fly with regularly. Whatever you do, train like you fight. Don't stay current in the sim and then decide to launch on a hard IFR day when you haven't been doing much of it. ....

When IMC, the copilot learns as much as the pilot. Double up if possible. After certification, double up for safely and efficiently. That is why there is a jump seat between the pilots in military aircraft. Uncle Sugar actually knows how to save money sometimes.

Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

I have all the required equipment, and the plane has been IFR certified in the past.

I do have a KX155 with a VOR/LOC/GS indicator, and another KX155 with a VOR/LOC Indicator. They Nav and Com radios in both seem to work well, and both indicators match the results I get from my GPSs.

My travelling is all done during the day, and so far from April-October. I'd avoid known hard IFR and questionable weather intentionally, and don't have any interest in being an ice pilot. I live in SouthEastern Washington (think Nevada dry), so local area flying would rarely require an instrument rating, though we do get winter inversions. The winter weather around us is usually bad enough I just don't go anywhere.

The utility for me would be in being able to plan the occasional work trip to Portland or Seattle, or a vacation, and have a reasonable chance at being able to get there, especially in the morning when I like to fly. My local weather and en route weather is usually clear, but I get to Seattle or Portland and it's an overcast bowl with 2k ceilings and 3k tops and no clean way in. It's hard to buy Mariner tickets in June if getting there is a crap shoot.

I suppose the general sentiment of my question is not really "what is the absolute minimum I can get by with", but "what equipment will it take to have the situational awareness and safety that makes single pilot IFR doable for the average pilot, and willing to fly people you care about".

I appreciate the sentiment Cory. I'm trying to figure out whether to take this leap.

I'm not sure I can answer a question about proficiency honestly. I try to fly at least an hour a week, and could easily turn that time into practice.

Since you already have a minimally-equipped aircraft and fly it regularly, I would absolutely recommend starting the training. You might decide as you progress through it that what you have is enough, or you might decide to add something like a 430W. Used 430Ws are capable, should be around a while, and can be had for what I consider to be a reasonable price given their utility.

Your scenario of "depart from VMC, fly to IMC, and have the option to get back to VMC" sounds like a good set-up for me. It's definitely the type of scenario where I relish being able to fly IFR.

contactflying wrote:For instrument training you want and will be expected to fly all the approaches. That means renting for ILS, ADF, and GPS. I was comfortable and safe in NG helicopters with only the ADF. You are capable of VOR approaches anywhere and PAR at a military field in an emergency.

I expect the early instrument capable GPS radio/nav units are available cheaply now. One unit would give you good radio communication and all the approaches. I am old and thick headed, but I almost learned the early Garmin before I quit instrument instruction.

For instrument work, two fair radios are about 1/1000th as good as one good radio. Clear communications are a must have.

ADF is not required anymore, if you have the equipment and there is an approach at a local airport you may have to demonstrate an approach. The ACS only specifies a precision and non-precision approach for the instrument checkride. For my instrument ride last summer I did a Full Procedure VOR approach to the published missed, and an RNAV, and ILS with vectors to final.

As far as equipment for IFR flight, my opinion is that you can never have too much equipment when flying in actual IFR. The more aide to situational awareness the better.

jcadwell wrote:I'm flying a 205 with twin KX155s, with a CDI, a Nav Indicator, a Marker beacon, a DG, a Garmin 296, and an Ipad with WingX with ADS-B in. Very basic, and somewhat old, though functional.

I've got about 500 hours, fly about 75 hours per year, and haven't started an instrument rating yet. Occasionally, it would be nice to have one. Most of my flying is in decent weather, from April-October, during the day. Perhaps a half dozen times a year, it would be really helpful to be able to either depart or arrive on instruments, usually near the coast, Seattle, or Portland.

I need to upgrade to ADS-B equipment in the near future. In a perfect world, I'd also add an autopilot, a WAAS navigator, dual G5s, etc at the same time. The budget strongly prohibits that, so perhaps I could add something that would increase safety and ease the mind enough to comfortably pursue an instrument rating.

At this point, I'm conflicted about the equipment that would cost effectively minimize the risks associated with instrument flying. What equipment is the most important to you and why?

I got my IFR license on the absolute bare minimum instruments...including a single com radio. And I've flown full glass with autopilot...much nicer if you have $100,000 for instruments.

That said, the expense and time commitment of the panel, license, and recurrent training does not come close to justifying the occasional use of the license, in my opinion.

IFR flying is great fun if someone else is paying for it. But you're going to need to damn near double your yearly flight hours to be safe on the gages. Burning up gas and engine time just to look at your panel gets really old, really fast. If you try to get by with minimum recurrent training you'll either wisely choose to not use the license, or die using it...and that's regardless of what you put in your panel.

In my 2,800-ish hours, the IFR license has proven to be the least useful investment in flying I've made yet. It's extremely rare to need to fly IFR on a day I want to be flying at all. YMMV

If you want to jump in with both feet and really commit to IFR flying then great. Otherwise, just steer clear of the whole mess.

Good luck!