MTV. Yes. Good story and lesson. As soon as I read the preamble, I could tell where you were headed with your point.

Being released from a trap, departing, is different than being lured into one, would you agree? I would hope that a controller/ weather observer would be conscious of deceiving an inbound pilot while helping a departing pilot. That's why my story included the statement that none of this could happen with other inbound or outbound traffic. I should also say that the story I told related to an IFR departure where even the IFR departure minima for the company SOP wasn't available until the modified weather report. I'm not talking about a VFR departure punching into illegal IFR.

Sorry to clutter the thread. I realize now that I deviated too far from the OP question. I'll stop.

Bonanza Man wrote:

mtv wrote:ATC is ATC. They cannot issue a SVFR in cipontrolled airspace when conditions are REPORTED below Basic VFR.


MTV

Since it's a surface area it will have official weather at the primary airport. PIREP's are irrelevant here.
If the primary airport is IFR but where you want to take off or land within the surface area is severe clear you still must have a SVFR clearance to legally do it. If the primary airport is reporting less than a mile, thus negating the SVFR option, then even in severe clear where you are you cannot legally land/take off.

I did go back and study up after I made my comment above. What I hadn't remembered is what you state here. If it's an airport with an E cloud around it it must have a ground based weather observation system.

Bonanza Man wrote:

mtv wrote:ATC is ATC. They cannot issue a SVFR in cipontrolled airspace when conditions are REPORTED below Basic VFR.


MTV

You're close. It's a surface area which is why you need a SVFR to depart when the primary airport is below VFR minimums. When the primary airport falls below VFR mins the airspace(surface area) reverts to the control of the radar facility that owns that airspace, that might be Center, it might be a nearby approach control. They are the ones who will issue the SVFR clearance. A SVFR can be issued for anywhere in the surface area and is only valid while within the confines of the surface area when ever the official weather is reporting 1 mile or more. Since it's a surface area it will have official weather at the primary airport. PIREP's are irrelevant here.
If the primary airport is IFR but where you want to take off or land within the surface area is severe clear you still must have a SVFR clearance to legally do it. If the primary airport is reporting less than a mile, thus negating the SVFR option, then even in severe clear where you are you cannot legally land/take off.

Not sure whether there are differences here or not, but operating in and out of King Salmon, Bethel, and Dillingham, I have never talked to center to get a SVFR clearance except after the tower in King Salmon closes in the evening. All other clearances were from tower (or FSS in Dillingham). I think it depends on the specific letter of agreement between the tower and the other enroute facility.

On the other hand, flying out of Lake Hood or Merrill Field, you have to call clearance delivery to get a SVFR departure. But on arrival, I have always just talked to the tower, as far as I can recall.


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Troy Hamon wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:

mtv wrote:ATC is ATC. They cannot issue a SVFR in cipontrolled airspace when conditions are REPORTED below Basic VFR.


MTV

You're close. It's a surface area which is why you need a SVFR to depart when the primary airport is below VFR minimums. When the primary airport falls below VFR mins the airspace(surface area) reverts to the control of the radar facility that owns that airspace, that might be Center, it might be a nearby approach control. They are the ones who will issue the SVFR clearance. A SVFR can be issued for anywhere in the surface area and is only valid while within the confines of the surface area when ever the official weather is reporting 1 mile or more. Since it's a surface area it will have official weather at the primary airport. PIREP's are irrelevant here.
If the primary airport is IFR but where you want to take off or land within the surface area is severe clear you still must have a SVFR clearance to legally do it. If the primary airport is reporting less than a mile, thus negating the SVFR option, then even in severe clear where you are you cannot legally land/take off.

Not sure whether there are differences here or not, but operating in and out of King Salmon, Bethel, and Dillingham, I have never talked to center to get a SVFR clearance except after the tower in King Salmon closes in the evening. All other clearances were from tower (or FSS in Dillingham). I think it depends on the specific letter of agreement between the tower and the other enroute facility.

On the other hand, flying out of Lake Hood or Merrill Field, you have to call clearance delivery to get a SVFR departure. But on arrival, I have always just talked to the tower, as far as I can recall.


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I suspect that in many cases, a tower will “facilitate” a SVFR” Clearance, by coordinating with Center, who now owns the airspace. At many uncontrolled airports with Echo airspace to the surface, the AFSS will facilitate a clearance for you over an RCO. In those cases, they make a call to Center, get your clearance, then pass it along to you.

Going in to the Anchorage bowl, I always used Anchorage Approach, and got clearances from them, but there’s no requirement to use Approach, so a tower could issue SVFR. Personally, I would never fly into that airspace without using the services of Anchorage Approach.

And, Hotrod, yes you read that regulation correctly: legally, you can fly ABOVE the cloud or fog that creates the below VFR condition, if you are in the clear. But, you still can’t LAND or takeoff within that airspace without a SVFR Clearance, or an IFR Clearance If wx is below 1 mile. And, you would still need to talk to ATC.

The point would be?

MTV

hotrod180 wrote:IMHO if they intended no VFR flight without a "special" (which is addressed by 91.157),
they would have said no flight under VFR, instead of the "beneath the ceiling under VFR" phrasing.
Seems like you could interpret that to mean that I can fly if the sky is clear where I am,
regardless of what the primary airport wx is reported as.
Or interpret it as I can fly if I am above the ceiling reported at the primary airport.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious about this.
Here in western WA, I've seen plenty of occasions where the airport is socked in but just a milem or two away it's severe clear.

I'm also curious if a SVFR clearance can be granted if you're just trying to transit the controlled airspace,
as opposed to being inbound to land at the primary airport.

If you are enroute and in the clear yet within the surface area you may transit without a SVFR clearance. Other than not being able to be issued when the official vsby is less than a mile there are no other restrictions. SVFR's may be issued when the surface area is VFR.

mtv wrote:
I suspect that in many cases, a tower will “facilitate” a SVFR” Clearance, by coordinating with Center, who now owns the airspace. At many uncontrolled airports with Echo airspace to the surface, the AFSS will facilitate a clearance for you over an RCO. In those cases, they make a call to Center, get your clearance, then pass it along to you.

Going in to the Anchorage bowl, I always used Anchorage Approach, and got clearances from them, but there’s no requirement to use Approach, so a tower could issue SVFR. Personally, I would never fly into that airspace without using the services of Anchorage Approach.



MTV

It all depends on what letters of agreement tower has with approach control. At Billings even though all controllers in the facility are radar controllers(class C field) the tower loses his airspace when the field is IFR and must coordinate with approach control to issue a SVFR clearance. The tower controller can read it to you but he got approval from approach. It didn't used to be that way but changed 15 or so years ago when the FAA had a policy change and stopped allowing radar separation to be used with SVFR aircraft, thus meaning no other aircraft can be in the surface area with a SVFR. At Bozeman they are a class D and any SVFR will come from its approach control, Boise, known as Big Sky Approach. Missoula is the same as Bozeman, they get it from Spokane.

mtv wrote:...And, Hotrod, yes you read that regulation correctly: legally, you can fly ABOVE the cloud or fog that creates the below VFR condition, if you are in the clear. But, you still can’t LAND or takeoff within that airspace without a SVFR Clearance, or an IFR Clearance If wx is below 1 mile. And, you would still need to talk to ATC. The point would be? MTV

The point would be if if I was just passing through, en route to somewhere else.
Or (as in Whee;s situation) landing at other than the primary airport.

I was southbound once, course set as to pass through Bremerton KPWT's class E airspace keyhole east of the airport.
KPWT was reporting IFR, yet 4 miles or so away where we were it was severe clear.
Neither I or the pilots of the other planes I was flying along with were sure if we needed to get a special,
or even if we could get one. It didn't help that none of us had ever gotten one before.
We were fairly low, 1200 MSL or so, and we figured well below any real IFR traffic that might be inbound.
We decided that the easiest thing to do was just alter course east a bit to skirt the class E airspace in question, maintain radio slince as far as ATC was concerned, and just go upon our merry way.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:...And, Hotrod, yes you read that regulation correctly: legally, you can fly ABOVE the cloud or fog that creates the below VFR condition, if you are in the clear. But, you still can’t LAND or takeoff within that airspace without a SVFR Clearance, or an IFR Clearance If wx is below 1 mile. And, you would still need to talk to ATC. The point would be? MTV

The point would be if if I was just passing through, en route to somewhere else.
Or (as in Whee;s situation) landing at other than the primary airport.

I was southbound once, course set as to pass through Bremerton KPWT's class E airspace keyhole east of the airport.
KPWT was reporting IFR, yet 4 miles or so away where we were it was severe clear.
Neither I or the pilots of the other planes I was flying along with were sure if we needed to get a special,
or even if we could get one. It didn't help that none of us had ever gotten one before.
We were fairly low, 1200 MSL or so, and we figured well below any real IFR traffic that might be inbound.
We decided that the easiest thing to do was just alter course east a bit to skirt the class E airspace in question, maintain radio slince as far as ATC was concerned, and just go upon our merry way.

That's what E is for. Transition space for IFR separation. VFR you are on your own and fine as long as you've got 3 miles, 500 above, 1000 below and 2000 horizontal from clouds. If you've got flight following they'll give you a heads up. You just can't land inside when the primary is below VFR. This helped me. http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/ ... e/class-e/

I skirted through a piece of airspace once where the floor of the Echo airspace was 700 feet agl. This area surrounded an airport, and the airspace butted up against a bluff, which was in the goo.

Ceiling was ~ 700 feet or so. I monitored the CTAF for some time as I approached, announced my presence when I got close and again as I passed through the area.....in Golf airspace. Visibility was excellent.

As I passed the extended centerline of the Airport, I saw something off to my right, which turned out to be an Army CH 47 helicopter, flying an instrument Approach.

We were both technically legal, but we were both wrong. I should have stayed away from the approach course of the Airport, and he should have been monitoring the CTAF. No harm, no foul. I talked to the pilot on the phone later to apologize. Turns out he’d just arrived from down south and couldn’t believe any “bug smashers” would be out flying in that weather. Welcome to Alaska.

It really wasn’t that close, nobody got hurt, but that sort of incident is specifically why, with the advent of RNAV approaches almost everywhere, we’ve seen those Echo airspace surface areas, many with extensions.

So, if the weather is down at the reporting station of one of these, either stay out of ALL portions of that surface area, or get a special to transit.

MTV

My one experience with SVFR was way back in 1991 while picking up a Mooney from the seller at Van Nuys CA. A friend flew me down from San Jose in his Comanche. When we got close we realized that we did not have 3 miles. We didn't really know what we had other than smoke and haze but we called tower for a special in hopes that they would accommodate us. I wasn't flying the airplane and probably would not have tried but the owner of the Comanche was a WWII P-38 instructor pilot. He was an interesting character and a story for another time perhaps. They put us in a holding pattern for maybe 10 minutes. We could see the ground but no horizon at all. They let a couple airplanes go and then told us to come on in. We landed uneventfully and I picked up the keys from an FBO and took off out of there VFR. No special. I have no idea why the conditions changed so radically so fast but my departure was in clear air. Go figure. So I suppose when things are changing fast maybe one can buy some time with a big circle in VFR until the tower thinks they have a mile.

I guess in retrospect what really happened was some sort of pop up IFR because that's what my friend was doing when we started down for the approach.