I've always planned on treating a "Ramp Check" in the same manner I routinely handle my DOT inspections on the road at the scale houses or check points. Just hand over the proper paperwork and let them inspect what they need to inspect and it's usually all good. I have found about 99.9% of the DOT folks to be very good people to work with as long as I have all my items up to par. I would like to think that goes the same with the FAA folks.

Hello Backcountry Pilots,

The FAA does indeed have jurisdiction and over-site on all civil aircraft with an “N number”, pilot, or mechanic with an FAA Certificate. Public Use/Government, or Military aircraft are a whole different discussion.

As an example, a pilot has an accident due to pilot error, and at the FAA’s discretion can 44709 or “re-examine” the airman’s pilot certificate to determine if he or she is still competent to hold or maintain that pilot certificate. This normally involves an aircraft checkride and oral evaluation. The same goes for an A & P mechanic if his or her work is below minimum standards.

I believe that Mr. Fresno is very wrong in his interpretation. I doubt Mr. Fresno would have much luck explaining to an NTSB Judge that the FAA does not have the authority to conduct a Part 91 Ramp Check. Good luck with that. Been there done that got the hat.

Pilot logbooks are to be made available to the FAA or Administrator upon request in accordance with 44709. Providing logbook copies is not normally aceptable unless approved by the Inspepector (in a means aceptable to the Administrator).

Part 91 Ramp Checks are normally performed when an FAA Inspector notices something wrong. Examples include overloaded aircraft, obvious airworthiness issues, or erratic flight operations.

As far as an infrequent Part 91 Ramp Checks go, its just like they told us back in Army Flight School, “cooperate and graduate”. And yes Title 49 United States Code 44709 is Law that does indeed pertain to Part 91 non-commercial operations, and Part 61 Pilot Certification. People on this link can pick phrases out of context to justify their position; however I live and work in “realville” or reality.

Merry Christmas

James

49 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 49 - TRANSPORTATION
SUBTITLE VII - AVIATION PROGRAMS
PART A - AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY
subpart iii - safety
CHAPTER 447 - SAFETY REGULATION
Sec. 44709 - Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates
From the U.S. Government Printing Office, http://www.gpo.gov


§44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates
(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.—The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.
(b) Actions of the Administrator.—The Administrator may issue an order amending, modifying, suspending, or revoking—
(1) any part of a certificate issued under this chapter if—
(A) the Administrator decides after conducting a reinspection, reexamination, or other investigation that safety in air commerce or air transportation and the public interest require that action; or
(B) the holder of the certificate has violated an aircraft noise or sonic boom standard or regulation prescribed under section 44715(a) of this title; and

(2) an airman certificate when the holder of the certificate is convicted of violating section 13(a) of the Fish and Wildlife Act of 1956 (16 U.S.C. 742j–1(a)).

(c) Advice to Certificate Holders and Opportunity To Answer.—Before acting under subsection (b) of this section, the Administrator shall advise the holder of the certificate of the charges or other reasons on which the Administrator relies for the proposed action. Except in an emergency, the Administrator shall provide the holder an opportunity to answer the charges and be heard why the certificate should not be amended, modified, suspended, or revoked.
(d) Appeals.—(1) A person adversely affected by an order of the Administrator under this section may appeal the order to the National Transportation Safety Board. After notice and an opportunity for a hearing, the Board may amend, modify, or reverse the order when the Board finds—
(A) if the order was issued under subsection (b)(1)(A) of this section, that safety in air commerce or air transportation and the public interest do not require affirmation of the order; or
(B) if the order was issued under subsection (b)(1)(B) of this section—
(i) that control or abatement of aircraft noise or sonic boom and the public health and welfare do not require affirmation of the order; or
(ii) the order, as it is related to a violation of aircraft noise or sonic boom standards and regulations, is not consistent with safety in air commerce or air transportation.

(2) The Board may modify a suspension or revocation of a certificate to imposition of a civil penalty.
(3) When conducting a hearing under this subsection, the Board is not bound by findings of fact of the Administrator but is bound by all validly adopted interpretations of laws and regulations the Administrator carries out and of written agency policy guidance available to the public related to sanctions to be imposed under this section unless the Board finds an interpretation is arbitrary, capricious, or otherwise not according to law.
(e) Effectiveness of Orders Pending Appeal.—
(1) In general.—When a person files an appeal with the Board under subsection (d), the order of the Administrator is stayed.
(2) Exception.—Notwithstanding paragraph (1), the order of the Administrator is effective immediately if the Administrator advises the Board that an emergency exists and safety in air commerce or air transportation requires the order to be effective immediately.
(3) Review of emergency order.—A person affected by the immediate effectiveness of the Administrator's order under paragraph (2) may petition for a review by the Board, under procedures promulgated by the Board, of the Administrator's determination that an emergency exists. Any such review shall be requested not later than 48 hours after the order is received by the person. If the Board finds that an emergency does not exist that requires the immediate application of the order in the interest of safety in air commerce or air transportation, the order shall be stayed, notwithstanding paragraph (2). The Board shall dispose of a review request under this paragraph not later than 5 days after the date on which the request is filed.
(4) Final disposition.—The Board shall make a final disposition of an appeal under subsection (d) not later than 60 days after the date on which the appeal is filed.

(f) Judicial Review.—A person substantially affected by an order of the Board under this section, or the Administrator when the Administrator decides that an order of the Board under this section will have a significant adverse impact on carrying out this part, may obtain judicial review of the order under section 46110 of this title. The Administrator shall be made a party to the judicial review proceedings. Findings of fact of the Board are conclusive if supported by substantial evidence.

Thanks JB, old chat room buddy. Merry Christmas!

gbflyer wrote:Thanks JB, old chat room buddy. Merry Christmas!

X2 just skip the chat room!!

What Super-Maule James said. They do what pleases them.

Very interesting thread. I cannot add anything aviation related, but the original post does mention that sailors also get boarded for "safety inspections".

This is true, I personally have had this happen on San Francisco (well, San Pablo) bay. But I doubt it will happen again.

When the USCG left, they gave me a receipt and said it was "good for a year". I don't think so. I think it is good for life. Nobody will be able to read that receipt without coming on board and I'll just wave it at the boarding party and holler "done for the year". I think it will work.

Thanks for jumping in there, James. It's always best to get info straight from the.....well, anyway, it's good to get accurate, documented information.

I for one fail to see why anyone would get their undies in a knot over a ramp check. Heaven knows, we've got lots of other things that are worth getting pissed over. And, getting your papers and those for your airplane in order is one of the easiest things in aviation....

FWIW

MTV

You guys know I was just reposting from another forum and asking the question right? You realize I never said anything close to saying that ramp checks were illegal or wrong or whatever, right?

Questioning authority is not refusing authority. I just wanted everyone's take on it. I didn't realize it would upset people.

svanarts wrote:You guys know I was just reposting from another forum and asking the question right? You realize I never said anything close to saying that ramp checks were illegal or wrong or whatever, right?

Questioning authority is not refusing authority. I just wanted everyone's take on it. I didn't realize it would upset people.

I read the first post and understood it was a repost. I don't believe anybody is upset at you, Scott. Does sound like the topic got heated. But I'm pretty sure James is a very, very trusted source of facts and information.

I have to echo MTV's sentiment about getting one's undies in a bunch over this. I had the pleasure of a ramp check near his old stomping ground in Anoka, MN. While I was initially worried, I handed over the doc's that I was politely requested of, and had a pleasant 5 minute conversation with the FAA inspector. He and I continued to to talk about aviation in general and skywagons in particular for awhile and I went on my way. He vollunteered his ID was very proffesional and obviously a general aviation fan.

As I travel the world and see the different systems there are for general aviation out there, I truly value the freedoms and the infrastructure and the regulatory system we have here in the U.S. While it is not perfect I think its pretty friggin good. Europe has regulated GA out of existence. Don't want to go there. I bet in Somalia there's no ramp checks, a libertarian's dream but good luck getting flight following or buying aircraft insurance there. While the FAA can be hard to live with for some, my experience has been good, and I have no fear about my next ramp check, nor will I make a big deal about it.

I've been ramped a few times. I've never met a "rouge" inspector...perhaps the one the previous poster met merely had a bad skin breakout that week.

Ramp checks over the years have been fast, professional and forgettable for me. They were generally over before I got a chance to get nervous or uppity, and I was on my way. Never showed a log or had a followup. Just the facts, my medical, my ticket, and AROW.

So I have this friend who I knew worked for the FAA but I never really asked him what he did. Turns out he's an airworthiness inspector up in WA state. I asked him specifically about ramp checks and what items I had to have on me as a PP who let his medical laps and was flying under LSA provisions. Here is his answer to me:

"No Part 91 operation is required to have aircraft or pilot logbooks in the airplane. A ramp check for the aircraft will include ARROW items (except radio station license for those who don't leave the US borders it's no longer required), a check of your certificate (you have to have it available) and medical, if applicable. I'll also look for required placards, general condition of the aircraft, things like that.

A ramp check can be done to any N registered airplane. If you tell the ASI he can't ramp your airplane, you will be cited for prohibiting access. There's a reg for that, too.

A commercial operator (135, 121) is not required to have pilot or aircraft logbooks onboard, either. The pilots are required to have their pilot certificate and medical, that's it. That's all I ask for on an enroute inspection. Being the airworthiness type, I'll also ask for the aircraft maintenance log, which is required for commercial operators. I'll look for mechanical discrepancies and corrective actions, as well as whatever is currently deferred. I'll look for complete and correct entries. They have other manuals required to be onboard as well (such as GOM, MEL, etc.) On a commercial operator, I'll look for maintenance logs whether it's an enroute or not. Flight attendants also have to have their certificates and their Flight Attendant Manuals onboard and current."

So there is Spokane FSDO's answer. Fresno never did answer me.