Skalywag wrote:I believe that it is still clear as mud Cary. I have been told (right hearsay) that us non commercial guys do not actually have to consent to a ramp check and that part 135 guys can decline if it interferes with their schedule etc. Now it also seems clear, that pending the circumstance, this may or may not cause the inspector to attempt to contact you at a later time to conduct the inspection or verify documents. I had an email from a friend of a friend who is an FAA inspector outlining the law in detail. According to that email, part 91 is not part of the FAR you quoted and only applies to commercial operators/operations etc. I have it on my computer and will drudge it up when I get back home.

Just like so many things tho, depending on the inspector or LEO, some would have you believe you are subject to a full search, including cavities, if they deem necessary.......

This is what confuses me. I was nosing through 8900.1 and found the guidance they use for performing ramp checks:

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?doc ... 6,Ch2,Sec4

THIS particular section only applies to airlines, air charters, and fractional ownerships.

I agree that the FAR listed above gives them the right to inspect our airman certificate. Maybe we are getting hung up over the term "ramp check". Are we calling something a ramp check that really isn't a ramp check?

svanarts wrote:

Skalywag wrote:I believe that it is still clear as mud Cary. I have been told (right hearsay) that us non commercial guys do not actually have to consent to a ramp check and that part 135 guys can decline if it interferes with their schedule etc. Now it also seems clear, that pending the circumstance, this may or may not cause the inspector to attempt to contact you at a later time to conduct the inspection or verify documents. I had an email from a friend of a friend who is an FAA inspector outlining the law in detail. According to that email, part 91 is not part of the FAR you quoted and only applies to commercial operators/operations etc. I have it on my computer and will drudge it up when I get back home.

Just like so many things tho, depending on the inspector or LEO, some would have you believe you are subject to a full search, including cavities, if they deem necessary.......

This is what confuses me. I was nosing through 8900.1 and found the guidance they use for performing ramp checks:

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?doc ... 6,Ch2,Sec4



THIS particular section only applies to airlines, air charters, and fractional ownerships.

I agree that the FAR listed above gives them the right to inspect our airman certificate. Maybe we are getting hung up over the term "ramp check". Are we calling something a ramp check that really isn't a ramp check?

Hello,
There is specific guidance in the FAA Handbook 8900.1 regarding performing a Part 91 Ramp Check see below. The 8900.1 is an FAA Inspectors "how to" or "operations manual". In addition there is Federal Law US CFR 44709 that gives the FAA authorization to inspect, airman, aircraft, and records. This information is in black and white so don't shoot the messenger. After following this link I was amazed by the amount of inaccurate BS/information, particularly from an attorney. I must admit that MTV is right on the mark on this subject and is most of the time.

Merry Christmas

James

Excerpt from FAA Handbook 8900.1
8900.1 CHG 262
Volume 6 SURVEILLANCE

chapter 1 PART 91 INSPECTIONS

Section 4 Conduct a Part 91 Ramp Inspection

6-88 OBJECTIVE. The objective of this task is to determine that an airman, operator, and/or aircraft is in continuing compliance with Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR). Completion of this task results in an indication in district office files and national PTRS of either a satisfactory or an unsatisfactory inspection.

6-89 GENERAL. Part 91 ramp inspections are numerous; however, it is important that the aviation safety inspector (ASI) become familiar with the aircraft he or she is inspecting. Ramp inspections involving other 14 CFR parts are available in the appropriate related task heading. This section covers ramp inspections for part 91 operators only.

Note: Airworthiness and Operations inspectors conduct ramp inspections on airmen and aircraft operating under various 14 CFR parts. The information provided may be applicable to either discipline depending on the conditions observed by the inspector and the 14 CFR part under which the aircraft is operated.

A. Definitions.

1) Operator. For the purposes of this chapter, an operator may be an owner, pilot, executive/corporate operator, etc.

2) Ramp Inspection. A ramp inspection is defined as surveillance of an airman, operator, air agency, or aircraft which may include conducting maintenance record inspections (PTRS code 3694/5694) sufficient to show compliance with 14 CFR during actual operations at an airport or heliport.

B. Inspector Conduct. The inspector must always have their Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) credentials available, since an airman or operator may or may not know an inspector.
Indicates new/changed information.
Note: For special considerations concerning surveillance at fly-ins, airshows, and other gatherings of General Aviation (GA) aircraft and airmen, see Volume 6, Chapter 11, Section 10, Surveillance of an Aviation Event, subparagraphs 6-2373A1) through 5). The inspector during a ramp inspection at a glider race or similar aviation event (where a waiver or authorization is not required) should not interrupt or distract a pilot during their pre-race routine within 1 hour of their race unless there is a safety-related issue. Should the inspector need to address an issue, he or she will do it as professionally as possible.

1) An inspector must not open or board any aircraft without the knowledge and consent of the crew or owner/operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.
Indicates new/changed information.
2) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue an inspection that may affect an operator’s busy schedule.
Indicates new/changed information.
3) The inspector should also bear in mind that he or she may not be able to complete all items on every ramp inspection, but the operator should provide the inspector with enough information that he or she is confident that the aircraft is in compliance with the regulations.
Indicates new/changed information.
C. Common Reasons for a Ramp Inspection. Ramp inspections may result when the inspector:

1) Observes an unsafe operation in the traffic pattern or in the ramp.

2) Receives notification from air traffic control (ATC) of an unsafe operation.

3) Observes obvious discrepancies that may affect the airworthiness of the aircraft.

4) Conducts routine surveillance activities.

5) Receives a task from FAA Order 1800.56, National Flight Standards Work Program Guidelines.

49 USC § 44709 - Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates

There is 1 Update Pending. Select the tab below to view.

.Excerpt from US CFR 44709:

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

Sorry but I got to add a picture too:

Thanks for clearing that up Super-Maule, much appreciated.

Is there a ramp check going on here

Skalywag wrote:I believe that it is still clear as mud Cary. I have been told (right hearsay) that us non commercial guys do not actually have to consent to a ramp check and that part 135 guys can decline if it interferes with their schedule etc. Now it also seems clear, that pending the circumstance, this may or may not cause the inspector to attempt to contact you at a later time to conduct the inspection or verify documents. I had an email from a friend of a friend who is an FAA inspector outlining the law in detail. According to that email, part 91 is not part of the FAR you quoted and only applies to commercial operators/operations etc. I have it on my computer and will drudge it up when I get back home.

Just like so many things tho, depending on the inspector or LEO, some would have you believe you are subject to a full search, including cavities, if they deem necessary.......

As usual, there's a lot of misconceptions here, some pertinent, some maybe not.

One mis statement here is referring any of this as "law". The FARs are REGULATIONS, not laws. They have the force of law by virtue of the authority granted to the Administrator by the Congress in the enabling legislation, but they are not laws.

And to be accurate, the FARs actually govern government purchasing guidelines, NOT aviation ops. That stands for the "Federal Acquisition Regulations". The aviation regulations are covered under Title 14 US Code. The pertinent point here, though is that Part 1 does indeed refer to all the other sections of the aviation regs, including part 91.

And, non commercial pilots, operating under part 91 are indeed required to comply with a request "by an authorized individual" for a ramp check.

But, again, a ramp check is specifically NOT a "search" as defined at law and referred to in the Constitution. No more so, in fact than the situation where a state patrolman pulls you over and asks to see your license and registration......do you consider THAT to be a "search" under the Constitution? Hardly, though such a stop MAY lead to something else observed that may provide probable cause to seek a search warrant. Bear in mind that FAA Inspectors don't have authority to request a search warrant, even if they have PC.

But, Try telling that highway cop no when he/she asks for your license, and enjoy the jail visit....

The reason for all this is to verify that you are in compliance with regulations which require you to be properly certificated to operate a motor vehicle or airplane.

Now, you can voluntarily permit a search, at which point you've waived your right to Constitutional protection against "unreasonable" searches. I for one wouldn't go there, but some LEOs may try pretty hard via threats and intimidation to get you to consent. All that's required in response is a POLITE "no". That may or may not work, but if they proceed with the unauthorized search, by all means document it as best you can.

One of the news items of late that is troubling is the activities of CBP in "detaining" pilots so that their aircraft can be searched via drug dog or warrant. This has been occurring well away from the borders, but the issue is that the Patriot Act gives some latitude to CBP that other LEOs don't have.

I AM a little wound up about that first post and some others here---simply because some folks read this kind of anti government/anti authority BS and actually believe it, and I assure you that if you "decline" a legitimate ramp check, the consequences are not going to be pleasant, just as would be the case if you were to "decline " to provide a state trooper a look at your drivers license.

Again, a ramp check is simply an examination of documents...yours which permit you to operate an aircraft, and those of the aircraft, indicating it is in airworthy condition and legal to operate in the NAS. There is NO authority, implied or specific that suggests that anyone can search your airplane just because they are authorized to perform a ramp check.

And as an FYI, I was flying for hire in northern Alaska in the late eighties/early nineties when SOMEone in the Fairbanks FSDO and/or the Region decided that the FAA ought to do a LOT more ramp checks. I have no idea how many times I was ramp checked by Inspectors (there are a LOT of them in the FAI FSDO), but I got checked at least weekly, and a few times more than once a week, and every one of those was professional and brief. Well, there was "Eric" ---- but that's a story for the campfire....and that was mostly amusing, not threatening.

MTV

Glidergeek wrote:Is there a ramp check going on here

Yep I was checking the ramp!! But even if you go up the ramp and out to the main road, it is to crooked and narrow to use!!
Ya gotta use the airport!!
Nice strip, Tall trees on 1 end, power lines on the other and short!! , Nice surface James did a great job on what he had to work with!!

mtv wrote:And to be accurate, the FARs actually govern government purchasing guidelines, NOT aviation ops. That stands for the "Federal Acquisition Regulations". The aviation regulations are covered under Title 14 US Code. The pertinent point here, though is that Part 1 does indeed refer to all the other sections of the aviation regs, including part 91.

My apologies in advance MTV

But when FAA inspectors and check airmen throw out this kind of regulatory mass confusion hog wash it helps no one. We all use the term FAR's to mean Federal Aviation Regulations even the fed's. Yes they fall under the title Code of Federal Regulations.

These regulations should be written so the people who use them can read and interpret there meanings. But they are not.


sorry, rant over.

So what happens if "they" find a discrepancy? Do you fly away (if airworthy) and later prove that you fixed the discrepancy?

NimpoCub wrote:So what happens if "they" find a discrepancy? Do you fly away (if airworthy) and later prove that you fixed the discrepancy?

It depends. I've seen situations where the Inspector simply told the pilot to send him or her a copy of the missing document and go on your way. The FAI FSDO used to hold free inspections. You brought your plane by, they'd conduct a ramp check and an external safety inspection, let you know of anything they found and tell you how to get it fixed. Then you could fly it home. No follow up, though I suspect they kept a record.

I know of one fellow who was ramped and his medical had expired....inspector told him to get a new medical and send a copy. Had he failed to do so, I expect he'd have got a violation.

Unfortunately, it seems the FAA management is insisting on more enforcement, as opposed to simply seekin compliance.

And, if you draw an inspector who's having a bad life......... The good news is there are a lot of good inspectors out there, AND, it seems in recent years, ramp checks seem to be low priority.

MTV

Waterboy wrote:

mtv wrote:And to be accurate, the FARs actually govern government purchasing guidelines, NOT aviation ops. That stands for the "Federal Acquisition Regulations". The aviation regulations are covered under Title 14 US Code. The pertinent point here, though is that Part 1 does indeed refer to all the other sections of the aviation regs, including part 91.

My apologies in advance MTV

But when FAA inspectors and check airmen throw out this kind of regulatory mass confusion hog wash it helps no one. We all use the term FAR's to mean Federal Aviation Regulations even the fed's. Yes they fall under the title Code of Federal Regulations.

These regulations should be written so the people who use them can read and interpret there meanings. But they are not.


sorry, rant over.

No apology needed....I was having a little fun. I've had students tell me they searched on line for the FARs a and it was "some weird bunch of gobbledygook gook with nothing about flying".

A REALLY good resource is a book available from Jeppessen called "The FARs Explained" (I abbreviated the regs my own self there....they don't). It gives the regs along with a history of the reg, what it means, enforcement history, any related Chief Counsel Opinions and cross reference to other related regs. It is a wonderful resource.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Skalywag wrote:I believe that it is still clear as mud Cary. I have been told (right hearsay) that us non commercial guys do not actually have to consent to a ramp check and that part 135 guys can decline if it interferes with their schedule etc. Now it also seems clear, that pending the circumstance, this may or may not cause the inspector to attempt to contact you at a later time to conduct the inspection or verify documents. I had an email from a friend of a friend who is an FAA inspector outlining the law in detail. According to that email, part 91 is not part of the FAR you quoted and only applies to commercial operators/operations etc. I have it on my computer and will drudge it up when I get back home.

Just like so many things tho, depending on the inspector or LEO, some would have you believe you are subject to a full search, including cavities, if they deem necessary.......

As usual, there's a lot of misconceptions here, some pertinent, some maybe not.

One mis statement here is referring any of this as "law". The FARs are REGULATIONS, not laws. They have the force of law by virtue of the authority granted to the Administrator by the Congress in the enabling legislation, but they are not laws.

And to be accurate, the FARs actually govern government purchasing guidelines, NOT aviation ops. That stands for the "Federal Acquisition Regulations". The aviation regulations are covered under Title 14 US Code. The pertinent point here, though is that Part 1 does indeed refer to all the other sections of the aviation regs, including part 91.

And, non commercial pilots, operating under part 91 are indeed required to comply with a request "by an authorized individual" for a ramp check.

But, again, a ramp check is specifically NOT a "search" as defined at law and referred to in the Constitution. No more so, in fact than the situation where a state patrolman pulls you over and asks to see your license and registration......do you consider THAT to be a "search" under the Constitution? Hardly, though such a stop MAY lead to something else observed that may provide probable cause to seek a search warrant. Bear in mind that FAA Inspectors don't have authority to request a search warrant, even if they have PC.

But, Try telling that highway cop no when he/she asks for your license, and enjoy the jail visit....

The reason for all this is to verify that you are in compliance with regulations which require you to be properly certificated to operate a motor vehicle or airplane.

Now, you can voluntarily permit a search, at which point you've waived your right to Constitutional protection against "unreasonable" searches. I for one wouldn't go there, but some LEOs may try pretty hard via threats and intimidation to get you to consent. All that's required in response is a POLITE "no". That may or may not work, but if they proceed with the unauthorized search, by all means document it as best you can.

One of the news items of late that is troubling is the activities of CBP in "detaining" pilots so that their aircraft can be searched via drug dog or warrant. This has been occurring well away from the borders, but the issue is that the Patriot Act gives some latitude to CBP that other LEOs don't have.

I AM a little wound up about that first post and some others here---simply because some folks read this kind of anti government/anti authority BS and actually believe it, and I assure you that if you "decline" a legitimate ramp check, the consequences are not going to be pleasant, just as would be the case if you were to "decline " to provide a state trooper a look at your drivers license.

Again, a ramp check is simply an examination of documents...yours which permit you to operate an aircraft, and those of the aircraft, indicating it is in airworthy condition and legal to operate in the NAS. There is NO authority, implied or specific that suggests that anyone can search your airplane just because they are authorized to perform a ramp check.

And as an FYI, I was flying for hire in northern Alaska in the late eighties/early nineties when SOMEone in the Fairbanks FSDO and/or the Region decided that the FAA ought to do a LOT more ramp checks. I have no idea how many times I was ramp checked by Inspectors (there are a LOT of them in the FAI FSDO), but I got checked at least weekly, and a few times more than once a week, and every one of those was professional and brief. Well, there was "Eric" ---- but that's a story for the campfire....and that was mostly amusing, not threatening.

MTV

That's a great explanation. Thanks!

Some of what MTV said is accurate--some was clearly tongue-in-cheek. Regs are laws, and until a court with competent jurisdiction says that they are unenfoceable for some reason, they most certainly have the force of law--and not just for government purchasing purposes. That part was tongue-in-cheek.

A ramp check is not a search, true. Compliance is mandatory, true. A search requires either consent or a warrant issued upon probable cause, true. Consent doesn't have to be given, no matter what the intimidation, true.

The over-reaching by TSA/HS, where there have been searches without probable cause, illegal detentions, etc., are not ramp checks. Hopefully, now that Congress (as ineffective as it generally is) has gotten into the act, perhaps that will stop.

But the point is that when an FAA Inspector shows you his/her ID, don't play idiot--do what is asked, if it's reasonable--and it's always reasonable to show your certificate, your medical, your picture ID, and your airplane's airworthiness certificate and registration. If you're absolutely certain that there's nothing on board that is illegal, use your discretion whether to permit "boarding"--but if you're flying a rental, don't consent, because you have no idea what the last renter brought aboard.

I agree that the FARs are hard to follow--they are often poorly written, obtuse, obscure, and redundant. But if you think they're bad, you ought to read some of the IRS regs!

Cary

Ok, but I am confused on Excerpt from FAA Handbook 8900.1. The section, 8900.1. is an internal order for FAA agents, not the public. From research of the FARs, 8900.1. is not referenced. If you request an hearing, the judge can only rely on the FARs, not policy or internal orders.

It is telling that 8900.1 does not confer the power to detain or any specific to take documents. Does 8900.1 section 2) give a pilot the right to say he can't submit to a ramp check because of his "busy schedule"? Think about it.


From 8900.1:
1) An inspector must not open or board any aircraft without the knowledge and consent of the crew or owner/operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.


2) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue an inspection that may affect an operator’s busy schedule.

Fresno wrote:Ok, but I am confused on Excerpt from FAA Handbook 8900.1. The section, 8900.1. is an internal order for FAA agents, not the public. From research of the FARs, 8900.1. is not referenced. If you request an hearing, the judge can only rely on the FARs, not policy or internal orders.

It is telling that 8900.1 does not confer the power to detain or any specific to take documents. Does 8900.1 section 2) give a pilot the right to say he can't submit to a ramp check because of his "busy schedule"? Think about it.


From 8900.1:
1) An inspector must not open or board any aircraft without the knowledge and consent of the crew or owner/operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.


2) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue an inspection that may affect an operator’s busy schedule.

I think I may give Fresno FSDO a call. They seem to be a pretty good FSDO as they go. Both the airworthiness inspectors they sent up to inspect both my homebuilts were real easy to work with and gave me some good info on maintaining homebuilt records and staying out of trouble with the law. Fresno is one of the few FSDO's left that send real live Feds to inspect your aircraft rather than use DARs. Or at least as of three years ago they did. I'll see if they can plainly explain what is and isn't legal in a ramp check for Part 91 pleasure flyers.

Fresno wrote:Ok, but I am confused on Excerpt from FAA Handbook 8900.1. The section, 8900.1. is an internal order for FAA agents, not the public. From research of the FARs, 8900.1. is not referenced. If you request an hearing, the judge can only rely on the FARs, not policy or internal orders.

It is telling that 8900.1 does not confer the power to detain or any specific to take documents. Does 8900.1 section 2) give a pilot the right to say he can't submit to a ramp check because of his "busy schedule"? Think about it.


From 8900.1:
1) An inspector must not open or board any aircraft without the knowledge and consent of the crew or owner/operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.


2) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue an inspection that may affect an operator’s busy schedule.

The operative term being "should use prudent judgement". In several cases during the period of time I noted above when I was being regularly ramped, I had an Inspector ask if this would be a good time to do a ramp check. I never said no, but the implication in those cases was that if I was pressed for time, they'd give me a pass.

MTV

Somebody asked what happens if they find something wrong. MTV and Cory well covered their legality. My only ramp check was in my TriPacer at Corinado Airport, in Albuquerque at seven am on Saturday. I had made the mistake of chatting with the Flight Service Station guy at Gallup and I answered his question as to where I was going so early. The FAA Maintenance Inspector from ABQ GADO, Mr. Runyon started with, "I guess you know why I'm here. I did not. He gave the airplane a very complete pre-flight check and asked to see the airworthiness. I opened the door and got it for him. After looking at it he said, "This airplane is grounded." My wife had to drive to Albuquerque to get me from Tohatchi, 30 miles north of Gallup on the Navajo Reservation. Twenty five years prior to my Saturday ramp check, the mechanic who put a 150hp engine in place of a 135hp engine had changed the airworthiness certificate from 135 to 150 with a pen. He had done the STC and other paperwork correctly. It had had twenty five annuals since. I called my lawyer and on Monday my wife and I drove back to Albuquerque and Mr. Runyon gave me a newly typed airworthiness certificate with PA22-135 on it.

In answer to what will happen: They will do whatever pleases them.

mtv wrote:

Fresno wrote:
From 8900.1:

2) If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should use prudent judgment whether or not to continue an inspection that may affect an operator’s busy schedule.
[/i]

The operative term being "should use prudent judgement". In several cases during the period of time I noted above when I was being regularly ramped, I had an Inspector ask if this would be a good time to do a ramp check. I never said no, but the implication in those cases was that if I was pressed for time, they'd give me a pass.

MTV

Again, 8900.1 is not the law. 8900.1 is an internal memo. The only law is the FAR or cited case law.

When you see a memo saying "use prudent judgement" to conduct a ramp check = they know they cannot detain you, or question you. If they had the authority to ramp check you, you would see a cite to the FAR or case law.

Walk away.

When you see a memo saying "use prudent judgement" to conduct a ramp check = they know they cannot detain you, or question you. If they had the authority to ramp check you, you would see a cite to the FAR or case law.

Walk away.

Hello Backcountry Pilots,

"Walk away" well good luck with that. I guarantee that if you try that you will be receiving a letter of investigation from the FAA in short order. The FAA Handbook 8900.1 is merly an FAA Inspectors guidance or how to manual. Authority to conduct a Part 91, 133, 135, 137 or 121 Ramp Check in part comes from 49 USC § 44709 - Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates:

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

Again don't shoot the messenger, but this is the process. A previous post stated, "don't provide your personal logbook". This document commonly required to show currency, however not the only means. Failure to provide your logbook for review by an FAA Inspector will result in a Federal Subpoena, followed with a suspension pending compliance, not fun, that was bad advise.

I suggest that you just have your aircraft and pilot information in order. Cooperate with the Inspector, however if he or she is arrogant, or just simply being an a-hole call their Supervisor or Office Manager at the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office).

Back when I was flying in industry I received a Part 91 Ramp Check that was similar to a drunk driving stop. Anyway myself and two other pilots complained to the FAA Regional Office and got this rouge Inspector disciplined. That jerk has since retired. There is always a few bad apples in every organization.

On that note, Merry Christmas

James

Super-Maule wrote:Hello Backcountry Pilots,

"Walk away" well good luck with that. I guarantee that if you try that you will be receiving a letter of investigation from the FAA in short order. The FAA Handbook 8900.1 is merly an FAA Inspectors guidance or how to manual. Authority to conduct a Part 91, 133, 135, 137 or 121 Ramp Check in part comes from [i]49 USC § 44709 - Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates:

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

The section you cited does not apply. Why? Because it does not pertain to Part 91. Start with the first paragraph with the section you are relying.

"49 USC § 44701 - General requirements

(a) Promoting Safety.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall promote safe flight of
civil aircraft in air commerce by prescribing—..."

Super-Maule wrote: A previous post stated, "don't provide your personal logbook". This document commonly required to show currency, however not the only means. Failure to provide your logbook for review by an FAA Inspector will result in a Federal Subpoena, followed with a suspension pending compliance, not fun, that was bad advise.

Do not hand over your books. They can't take them from you without an order. If you volunteered them, they are fair game. Without a formal complaint filed, I doubt they can get a subpoena issued. But if they do, comply with the subpoena (after you carefully reviewed them and with the advice of an attorney).

Fresno wrote:

Super-Maule wrote:Hello Backcountry Pilots,

"Walk away" well good luck with that. I guarantee that if you try that you will be receiving a letter of investigation from the FAA in short order. The FAA Handbook 8900.1 is merly an FAA Inspectors guidance or how to manual. Authority to conduct a Part 91, 133, 135, 137 or 121 Ramp Check in part comes from [i]49 USC § 44709 - Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates:

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

The section you cited does not apply. Why? Because it does not pertain to Part 91. Start with the first paragraph with the section you are relying.

"49 USC § 44701 - General requirements

(a) Promoting Safety.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall promote safe flight of
civil aircraft in air commerce by prescribing—..."

Super-Maule wrote: A previous post stated, "don't provide your personal logbook". This document commonly required to show currency, however not the only means. Failure to provide your logbook for review by an FAA Inspector will result in a Federal Subpoena, followed with a suspension pending compliance, not fun, that was bad advise.

Do not hand over your books. They can't take them from you without an order. If you volunteered them, they are fair game. Without a formal complaint filed, I doubt they can get a subpoena issued. But if they do, comply with the subpoena (after you carefully reviewed them and with the advice of an attorney).

Hi Fresno.

You seem to be well studied on this subject. Not trying to be a smart ass here with my questions: have you experienced what you are advocating in some way and are here today to tell the tale? Are you an attorney with experience in matters FAA? Former or current inspector?

Again, thanks for your input.