Farm Bureau just called and said the same thing as lowflybye.

His logic does not make since even for non aviation policies...if a kid drowns in your pool while swimming without your permission you better be ready for the lawsuit.



Non Sequitur, completely and totally irrelevant for this discussion. Because an attractive nuisance, by definition, only applies to a minor. As such an airstrip can never be considered an attractive nuisance because a minor cannot fly.





Do you have any unmarked hazards on your strip that could cause damage to an otherwise uneventful landing? Chuckholes? Rocks? Animals?


Check state laws. In Montana you're covered by our hold harmless laws as stated a few pages back. Chuck holes and rocks are not wanton and willful negligence, which is the standard here. Even if you know about them. As a landowner I owe you exactly zero care. As long as I haven't sabotaged the land I cannot be found liable. Here's a court case where a hunters family sued the state because her husband was killed by a grizzly bear while hunting on public land. She said the state owed a duty to hunters to make the land safe from that or to at least warn the huinters about hazards on the land. The courts said no, no duty at all is owed to recreational users.

http://www.onpointnews.com/docs/grizzly2.pdf


You can try and sue the landowner but here's what happens. Landowners insurance company goes to court and gets a summary judgment against the person that is suing. Lawsuit doesn't go past day one. In fact the lawsuit doesn't even get filed because of our laws. Some states have the same laws some don't. Check your state.

If you have an area designated for landing, whether it be private or open for others to use, listed or unlisted, then you pick up some liability.



Maybe in your state, not in mine.

Bonanza Man-

If you are correct then your state is the exception to the rest of the country...aviation insurance is how I make my living so I am just telling you how I see it work in the real world...other than Montana apparently.

lowflybye, do you have any other cases besides the golf course one? That one seems like a little bit of a stretch based on what the thread started with. A paved runway at a country club/golf resort seems like a lawyers dream, then park a tractor on the runway to boot.

I am starting to think the backhoe is the best idea yet.

lowflybye wrote:Bonanza Man-

If you are correct then your state is the exception to the rest of the country...aviation insurance is how I make my living so I am just telling you how I see it work in the real world...other than Montana apparently.

We didn't invent this type of liability mitigation. In fact we copied other states. Lots of states have these type laws to protect landowners. The main thing is to never use another states laws as evidence for doing/not doing something in your state. I own land in Minnesota, different state, different set of realities to deal with.

lancef53 wrote:lowflybye, do you have any other cases besides the golf course one? That one seems like a little bit of a stretch based on what the thread started with. A paved runway at a country club/golf resort seems like a lawyers dream, then park a tractor on the runway to boot.

I am starting to think the backhoe is the best idea yet.

I think what you'll run into there is they were essentially charging to use the runway or at least in furtherance of their business. That's a whole different animal and not really applicable to you letting someone use your strip for recreational purposes.

It is really sad that you just cannot say "Here is where it is, it is this long and this wide and with these conditions and it is just about the most dangerous strip in the lower 48 and if you want to just give it a try, go ahead". I am a believer in let the buyer beware. How about let the lander beware. It seems that nobody wants to be responsible for their f*** up.

I guess that nobody is welcome.

Tim

qmdv wrote:It is really sad that you just cannot say "Here is where it is, it is this long and this wide and with these conditions and it is just about the most dangerous strip in the lower 48 and if you want to just give it a try, go ahead". I am a believer in let the buyer beware. How about let the lander beware. It seems that nobody wants to be responsible for their f*** up.

I guess that nobody is welcome.

Tim

Let's see I've got the pictures,lat long plotted in my GPS about 3 hours each way - run up the FLAG !

Mine is just a 1000' long shooting lane. I have a deerstand off to one side and try to keep the grass mowed short because I know the deer like the shorter more succulent grass. For some odd reason I have a 50x56 shop with a 40' bifold door right next to the "shooting lane" also. Wonder what I keep in that "shop"? Hmm, maybe an air transvience machine?

The other thing that really pissed me off....the tax aprraiser showed up and said, "oh, a landing strip, I'll have to check how that'll be taxed." I told him it is to short to land a plane on. REALLY PISSED me off!!! Luckily he hasn't seen my plane there yet as he always comes in the summer and it is on floats kept at me dad's place. Not sure how to tell if he is charging me more for it or not since our property values here have skyrocketed in the last couple of years.
WW

qmdv wrote:It is really sad that you just cannot say "Here is where it is, it is this long and this wide and with these conditions and it is just about the most dangerous strip in the lower 48 and if you want to just give it a try, go ahead". I am a believer in let the buyer beware. How about let the lander beware. It seems that nobody wants to be responsible for their f*** up.

I guess that nobody is welcome.

Tim

Hey Tim, I know how you feel. As long as the strip owner gives an accurate condition report, then yes, "let the lander beware at your own risk!!" I'll say it right here on this public forum that if I F up my plane on some one else's strip (public, private, or any where), I will take full responsiblity for my F up!! If my insurance pays for my F up at a private or uncharted strip, great. If not, then I consider it my problem and a good leason learned!!

WWhunter wrote:Mine is just a 1000' long shooting lane. I have a deerstand off to one side and try to keep the grass mowed short because I know the deer like the shorter more succulent grass. For some odd reason I have a 50x56 shop with a 40' bifold door right next to the "shooting lane" also. Wonder what I keep in that "shop"? Hmm, maybe an air transvience machine?

The other thing that really pissed me off....the tax aprraiser showed up and said, "oh, a landing strip, I'll have to check how that'll be taxed." I told him it is to short to land a plane on. REALLY PISSED me off!!! Luckily he hasn't seen my plane there yet as he always comes in the summer and it is on floats kept at me dad's place. Not sure how to tell if he is charging me more for it or not since our property values here have skyrocketed in the last couple of years.
WW

I hope the tax apraiser doesn't read this forum!!

lowflybye wrote: ...aviation insurance is how I make my living so I am just telling you how I see it work in the real world...

A question for our resident insurance guy.

I know of a private residencial strip on the California coast that requires folks that want to land have the strip listed as additionally insured. What would be the cost of that.

Also, some folks have stated that if they bend up their plane, they will take the responsibility. If their insurance pays up then that is fine by them. Wouldn't the insurance co then just sue the land owner. Also if the plane got bent up in such a manor that it killed the pilot, then I do not think that, after talking to a lawer and determining my net worth, the good wife would be as easy going as the pilot that said they would be responsible for the F*** UP.

Tim

This is the crux of the issue. While the pilot may be a stand up kind of person and would take full responsibility for any mishap that may befall them on a strange airstrip, there are other interested parties -- spouse, children, other relatives, passengers -- that might not be as willing to just drop the issue.

Get your check book out.

Nizina

qmdv wrote:
Also, some folks have stated that if they bend up their plane, they will take the responsibility. If their insurance pays up then that is fine by them. Wouldn't the insurance co then just sue the land owner. Also if the plane got bent up in such a manor that it killed the pilot, then I do not think that, after talking to a lawer and determining my net worth, the good wife would be as easy going as the pilot that said they would be responsible for the F*** UP.

Tim

That is a good point I didn't think of .

Unless your policy specifically prohibits it, which is very rare, you can land anywhere. Once you accept the insurance companies money you are required to cooperate with them if they choose to sue the owner of the strip.



Hey Tim, I know how you feel. As long as the strip owner gives an accurate condition report, then yes, "let the lander beware at your own risk!!" I'll say it right here on this public forum that if I F up my plane on some one else's strip (public, private, or any where), I will take full responsiblity for my F up!! If my insurance pays for my F up at a private or uncharted strip, great. If not, then I consider it my problem and a good leason learned!!

Bonanza Man wrote:Unless your policy specifically prohibits it, which is very rare, you can land anywhere. Once you accept the insurance companies money you are required to cooperate with them if they choose to sue the owner of the strip.

Hey Tim, I know how you feel. As long as the strip owner gives an accurate condition report, then yes, "let the lander beware at your own risk!!" I'll say it right here on this public forum that if I F up my plane on some one else's strip (public, private, or any where), I will take full responsiblity for my F up!! If my insurance pays for my F up at a private or uncharted strip, great. If not, then I consider it my problem and a good leason learned!!

Basically, this is back to the other reality of aviation insurance. You insurance policy insures you, not third parties. To take responsibility, you would have to be willing to indemnify the land owner and repay them if they get sued by your insurance company trying to recover losses paid to you. It is called subrogation and it has nothing to do with being friends or a good guy.

Insurance companies spend more money on lawyers than they do on claims.

Basically, this is back to the other reality of aviation insurance. You insurance policy insures you, not third parties. To take responsibility, you would have to be willing to indemnify the land owner and repay them if they get sued by your insurance company trying to recover losses paid to you. It is called subrogation and it has nothing to do with being friends or a good guy.


Right and this is why the state can just step in like Montana has and say that the landowner cannot be held liable as a matter of law. Prevents a lot of frivolous suits.

Yeah.. Like the Don Corbitt fiasco..... Forever changed the way airshows are run.... And not for the better either....


Don't get me started...

Bonanza Man wrote:Unless your policy specifically prohibits it, which is very rare, you can land anywhere.

My policy says that if I F up my plane at a charted airport or land anywhere for a real emergancy, I am covered. So if I land and F up my plane at an uncharted private strip or even a dry lake bed, I'm S. O. L.!! Comes out of my pocket!!