I'm currently on about hour 12 or so on my new to me 1956 C-180. I have been flying since 1987 but only got my ppl in 1997 and haven't flown much, around 120 hours. Jan/Feb got my tailwheel, and took an aerobatics course ( wow would suggest anyone flying who hasn't done this to go do it, Learned so much about what the plane will do safely, and how to get unupest)
I don't have a lot of confidence in my EGT/CHT gauge, my oil pressure gauge sticks a little, etc... so an upgrade in my future.
having seen the current thread on installing the Garmin G3x in a C-170. Really has me thinking.
before that post, I had my eyes set on the E.I 30P for the engine gauges. But the G3x has engine monitoring plus everything else i desire.
the G3x is close to or identical to the G300 Factory installed in the Cessna 162 skychatcher, as the primary instrument. all glass.
This is what I want. and a couple of steam gauges for backup. I am currently not IR rated but on my bucket list.
I'm what you could call a tech-y type of person. Steam gauges are great and have worked great for the last 60 years, but I really like the newer electronics.

So help me understand what steps I need to take, and in what order, that I need to do to see if this is feasible. Primary goal is to take wife and kids to different areas in the east, and maybe the west some day.

I currently have two nav/com and 2 indicators, Gx-55 GPS (VFR only), I bought a Gdl39-3D couple of weeks ago and a yoke mounted ipad4 mini
man that beats the Gx55 to death. with terrain avoiadance, ads-b in, current weather, etc....

My wish panel would be a G-650 and dual G3x's one on set on flight the other on engine management. with the 650 and indicator I could keep the IFR capability .....yes?

I have pretty thick skin. ..so let the education begin

edit: I would like to know more about the CAR-3 stuff and TSO'd stuff

edit 2: searching web, I cannot see where the G500 has engine monitoring, and don't want to spend that much on EFIS and Engine monitor

The new all glass stuff is nice but you really have to be careful and understand what you are and are not getting. Simple things like marking a point with the gps may take several steps. Can you change from MPH to Nautical without computer interface? How easy is it to adjust fuel flow? If you have a problem and have to send it in than plane is down hard until you get the unit back. I am a big fan of having good engine monitoring but I would not combine it with flight instruments. Glass panel will not make you a better/safer pilot.
DENNY

DENNY wrote:The new all glass stuff is nice but you really have to be careful and understand what you are and are not getting. Simple things like marking a point with the gps may take several steps. Can you change from MPH to Nautical without computer interface? How easy is it to adjust fuel flow? If you have a problem and have to send it in than plane is down hard until you get the unit back. I am a big fan of having good engine monitoring but I would not combine it with flight instruments. Glass panel will not make you a better/safer pilot.
DENNY

Thanks for the reply

I mean no disrespect at all just asking questions to help me learn
just of arguments sake do you still drive a car with a Rand McNally in the car, or do you use a in dash GPS or your smartphone?

I'm not thinking it will make me a better/safer pilot, but what little I have messed with the iPad and Garmins Ipilot I find it better than looking for railroad tracks, and roads on the sectional(which is onboard). I live close to the foothills of the Smoky Mountains and have seen the iPad alert me of upcoming terrain, I wasn't close but headed towards it, just flying around losing alt for the pattern, way cool. also seeing airplanes that have already installed ADS-B out, displayed as on onlay on the map, with alt and heading. Playing with the Ipilot, is one of the reasons for picking G3x, it is the same interface as the iPad/Ipilot. I was planning on keeping a few key steam gauges for emergency backup.
as far as the glass breaking down, yes it would suck, but It shouldn't keep me from landing safely at the closest airport. chances are that the G3x and the iPad/Ipilot, and my iPhone 6 also running ipilot would fail all at once, unless GPS was down for maintenance or sat fell out of orbit.
in that case out comes the Rand McNally ( sectional )
as far as the engine instruments, I only have one CHT and one EGT, a sticky oil pressure gauge, and other small gauges on far side of panel.
I feel better prepared to notice something amiss happening or starting to trend to something bad with a better monitoring system.
The Cesssna Skywatcher new had one G3x with option of dual G3x's, NO steam what so ever. ok they were g300's but from what I can research they are the same unit. how is that safer than my 60 year old analog steam/mechanical gauges?
if one is "one" with their plane with enough hours behind her, and your engine gauges quit, one should be able to get her back on the ground without destroying the motor with no gauges, yes?

Please don't take me as confrontational I am really wanting to learn all I can and make a informed decision
I understand how my posts might upset some people. i apologize in advance.

rant...... I also don't understand how the experimental world can fly right beside me in a similar sized aircraft with a G3x using on some occasions the same motor. yet I cannot because of the FAA has lumped everything below 12,500 pounds in the same category. I hear they might be working on it, I guess we will have to wait

No offense taken. When I say down hard I just mean you are waiting for that unit to be shipped out repaired and shipped back. It could be a while. Having things in several small packages makes it easier to get them fixed or just able inop and keep flying. I have lots of new stuff in my cub (digital artificial horizon for example) but it is not all in one package. If I loose a gage or flight instrument it is pretty easy to find a replacement to get me home.
I have a friend that just built a wonderful cub spanker. He's has some nice all in one glass panel, Garmin I think, but says it is hard to navigate and needs computer interface to make simple value changes. I agree you engine monitoring needs an upgrade and would go with a EI unit. I have had great service from them and my gauges have been trouble free. That is a simple upgrade that will pay off in the long run. You can change flight instruments out as needed in the future. Get the engine monitoring done and spend the rest on gas.
DENNY

I don't think the g3x can replace primary instruments in a certified plane. You need to be looking at something like the EI or JPI gauges.

The EI CGR30P can replace 5 primary engine instruments in a standard 3" hole. Others here really like the bigger and more capable MVP-50P.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eicgr30p10-05345.php

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mvp50.php

For nav you probably might like the aspen avionics - seems to be the most economical retrofit - at least until the Dynon D10 STC is extended to the 180.

https://www.aspenavionics.com/vfr

soyAnarchisto wrote:I don't think the g3x can replace primary instruments in a certified plane. You need to be looking at something like the EI or JPI gauges.

The EI CGR30P can replace 5 primary engine instruments in a standard 3" hole. Others here really like the bigger and more capable MVP-50P.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eicgr30p10-05345.php

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mvp50.php

For nav you probably might like the aspen avionics - seems to be the most economical retrofit - at least until the Dynon D10 STC is extended to the 180.

https://www.aspenavionics.com/vfr

I went this route. All glass with an MVP-50 and Aspen 1000 for primary instruments. I only have a little time behind my new panel yet, but so far, I love it.

The MVP is awesome and chock full of critical engine info that's displayed in an intuitive layout. It is very easy to monitor all parameters when its concentrated right in front of me. The Aspen is equally loaded with features for which it is intended. A very nice piece of equipment.

I went ahead and made my panel IFR, so I used the Sandia Quattro for backup attitude, airspeed, altimeter, and slip. (the Aspen requires a backup airspeed and altimeter even for VFR primary) A GTN 650 drives the Aspen and a 796 is panel mounted in the mix as well.

So, I don't have a single analog gauge in the panel. Going this route saved lots of space and weight. The new technology has proven that it is legit stuff and every bit as reliable as a vacuum system. The Aspen, Sandia, and 796 all have battery backups, so in the event of a total electrical failure, the only thing I won't be able to look at is the engine monitor. Like was stated earlier, I think I can get the airplane to the ground by feel and ear without grenading the engine.

Too bad the certified world gets stuck with the high prices, but I guess options are few if you want to stay legal.

soyAnarchisto wrote:I don't think the g3x can replace primary instruments in a certified plane.

yes this is my point, in the SkyCatcher it is the primary for the engine.

so if the FAA allowed Cessna to put it in a SkyCatcher why can we not put it in a Cessna 180 ???

seems like a double standard

I can't defend it. I'll point out that it's up to the manufacturers of the equipment or the plane to get something past the FAA - and neither care about the old certificated
market because well we don't represent any revenue for them.

Even the dynon stc - it's being driven by the EAA. Not dynon. I emailed dynon about whether the stc would be extended to cover the 180 and the response was worthless. They told me to contact the EAA. And they sell the instrument and profit from it. And the EAA is the EXPERIMENTAL aircraft association. It's sad when we are dependent on experimental guys to help us in the certificated world.

I dunno. The skycatcher is a) an LSA with different set of rules for certification and b) now a dead plane because nobody bought them. Back to square 1!

The stand alone EFIS is cool, but not the $60K or whatever cool to install a certified system in a real airplane. We have the experimental version that was $10K and would be another $3-4K to finish it up with ADS-B and transponder. Wouldn't do it again.

The engine monitor has some merit I suppose for fuel injection, turbocharged, turbines, etc. but to me for an application in a O470 it's a worry meter. Again, we have one and it will indicate everything including the temp. of your ass in the seat. [emoji1]. Wouldn't do it again.

To each their own though, and of course it's your money. My experience with buyers remorse.

60k is dual G1000 territory. Ain't nobody got time for that.

A mvp50 is 5k, an aspen evolution is 5k. A basic vfr "glass" panel could replace every single instrument (except gps) with 2 things that weigh ~2 lbs total. The CGR30p is $3.5k. Assuming you can't do any of the work yourself you are looking at maybe $10-12k for basic vfr glass installation (if you already have a gps) - for a certified plane.

I agree there's a difference in perspective. These old, unreliable instruments worry me far more. The weight savings is pretty substantial.

My glideslope/vor indicator has gone tits up. My cht/egt gauge (primary) is inop. The EI, single point egt/cht I have is old and very laggy. My fuel gauges bounce constantly from E to F and are damn near useless except when full. The $500 clock is jacked up. Vacuum pumps fail in the planes I fly every 2 years it seems.

gbflyer wrote: but to me for an application in a O470 it's a worry meter.

My mechanic and I just had this conversation two days ago. He has the same sentiments for a fancy engine monitor in a carbureted engine. Said it would be something to worry him more than necessary. As long as the CHTs are good, ignorance is bliss...I tend to agree.

I have fuel injection, so I have the ability manage fuel flow to optimize balance (move injectors around, use Gami injectors, etc). LOP is an option as well. Complete engine information facilitates both.

I think one can make more use of the info in an IO-engine than in an O-engine.

What does it mean "as long as the cht's are good" without an engine mgmt on all 6 (or 4)? My O470 is nearing TBO - I'm worrying anyway - I'd like to know when one of the cylinders starts going before I'm 800agl in the frank church.

If factory cht is dead and have a secondary EI. Do I replace that expensive 70 year old POS with something that will cost way too much and get rid of the unnecessary second gauge?

soyAnarchisto wrote:What does it mean "as long as the cht's are good" without an engine mgmt on all 6 (or 4)? My O470 is nearing TBO - I'm worrying anyway - I'd like to know when one of the cylinders starts going before I'm 800agl in the frank church.

If factory cht is dead and have a secondary EI. Do I replace that expensive 70 year old POS with something that will cost way too much and get rid of the unnecessary second gauge?

CHTs being good...yes knowing all six temps. But point being that you can get a 6 probe CHT without having to buy a $5K engine monitor.

RWM wrote:

soyAnarchisto wrote:CHTs being good...yes knowing all six temps. But point being that you can get a 6 probe CHT without having to buy a $5K engine monitor.

Can you get a 6-point CHT/EGt that can be used as a "primary" gauge without spending $3.5K for either an EI or JPI primary gauge? I could very well be wrong but I've not seen a six point EGT/CHT gauge that can be used as primary except for the more expensive (and recent) multi-function gauges like the CGR30P.

i also have oil temp gauge which is my old primary - it's junk - just a green arc with no numbers. I'm looking at the whole right side of my panel and thinking I can throw it all out for $3500 and move it closer to my scan. You're looking at $1500 for a secondary 6-point from either EI or JPI - and you still need a working primary. If your primary is toast what are you to do?. You're creeping up on 2 grand pretty quick here.

The CGR30P allows you to toss out your manifold pressure gauge, rpm gauge, oil pressure, oil temp, egt and cht gauges - and add in fuel flow and replace my $500 astrotech lc-2 flight clock too (also broken and not certified in my plane - clock needed to get my ifr ticket).

soyAnarchisto wrote:

RWM wrote:

soyAnarchisto wrote:CHTs being good...yes knowing all six temps. But point being that you can get a 6 probe CHT without having to buy a $5K engine monitor.

Can you get a 6-point CHT/EGt that can be used as a "primary" gauge without spending $3.5K for either an EI or JPI primary gauge? I could very well be wrong but I've not seen a six point EGT/CHT gauge that can be used as primary except for the more expensive (and recent) multi-function gauges like the CGR30P.

i also have oil temp gauge which is my old primary - it's junk - just a green arc with no numbers. I'm looking at the whole right side of my panel and thinking I can throw it all out for $3500 and move it closer to my scan. You're looking at $1500 for a secondary 6-point from either EI or JPI - and you still need a working primary. If your primary is toast what are you to do?. You're creeping up on 2 grand pretty quick here.

The CGR30P allows you to toss out your manifold pressure gauge, rpm gauge, oil pressure, oil temp, egt and cht gauges - and add in fuel flow and replace my $500 astrotech lc-2 flight clock too (also broken and not certified in my plane - clock needed to get my ifr ticket).

I think we agree on the same thing. You're preaching to the choir here. I pulled everything and installed an MVP-50. It is awesome.

i got a quote for the CGR-30P by E.I.
installed was 7,000
and another 2000 for the new panel overlay.
thats 9000 just for an engine display.

the G3x with engine monitor is
edit:
"Features a single GDU 370 display with GSU 25 Air Data, Attitude and Heading Reference System (ADAHRS), GEA 24 Engine Indication System (EIS) interface, GMU 22 magnetometer and GTP 59 air temperature probe

$4,3751"



a new Tso'd oil pressure gauge is 500 not installed
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/i ... aphic2.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/i ... temp16.php
so just to replace what gauges that do not work great we are pushing around 1500 for some mechanical gauges

did I read somewhere that since my AW was CAR-3 I don't have to install Tso'd oil pressure gauge?
if that is true then why can I not install a EFIS that is not Tso'd

doc_dyer wrote:if that is true then why can I not install a EFIS that is not Tso'd

you can - it just cannot replace "primary" instruments - you have to leave the old junk in and maintain it

doc_dyer wrote:<snip>
I have pretty thick skin. ..so let the education begin

edit: I would like to know more about the CAR-3 stuff and TSO'd stuff
<snip>

You're in luck - continue your education with the "Moving Onward on Part 23" article in the June 2016 issue of Avionics News:
http://www.brightcopy.net/allen/avne/53-6/#/22

Fly safely!

WOW, thanks IPat
that was an interesting read
hope it makes it to the end
going to get on ACAD and start planning my panel for the new year

soyAnarchisto wrote:60k is dual G1000 territory. Ain't nobody got time for that.

A mvp50 is 5k, an aspen evolution is 5k. A basic vfr "glass" panel could replace every single instrument (except gps) with 2 things that weigh ~2 lbs total. The CGR30p is $3.5k. Assuming you can't do any of the work yourself you are looking at maybe $10-12k for basic vfr glass installation (if you already have a gps) - for a certified plane.

I agree there's a difference in perspective. These old, unreliable instruments worry me far more. The weight savings is pretty substantial.

My glideslope/vor indicator has gone tits up. My cht/egt gauge (primary) is inop. The EI, single point egt/cht I have is old and very laggy. My fuel gauges bounce constantly from E to F and are damn near useless except when full. The $500 clock is jacked up. Vacuum pumps fail in the planes I fly every 2 years it seems.

Sounds like a plan. [emoji1]