Seems like this should have been covered, but I couldn't find anything.

I'm a few years away from either rebuilding or replacing my Lyc O-360. I'm trying to figure out how much of a price difference there is in rebuilding mine vs. just buying a factory new engine. Part of that decision is the cost exposure of sending my engine out only to find that critical parts are no longer useable, and part of it is down time.

There's a log-book issue with my engine. I've apparently lost the logs from before the last rebuild. I don't know if they're recoverable, but if not then I really don't know how many times the engine has been rebuilt.

What's the cost to remove and ship a engine and have it torn down to the point where they can tell what's reusable?

What's the value of a run-out engine that may or may not be rebuildable?

Has anyone bought a new O-360 and hung it and kept track of the associated costs?

I realize there's no easy answer, but if the difference in cost is around ten grand, and the potential down time and unforeseen expenses are greatly reduced with factory-new, then it might make more sense to buy new and avoid the risks.

Just curious what other people have encountered going down the same road before me.

thanks

New engine is required to make to 5% over stated Hp out of the box. 190Hp to you. Plus roller tappets. FWIW.
-DP

denalipilot wrote:New engine is required to make to 5% over stated Hp out of the box. 190Hp to you. Plus roller tappets. FWIW.
-DP

How exactly does that work? Higher RPM??

More HP is definitely wanted. I often fantasize someone will come up with a STC'd super-charger for about $4,000 and a two-hour install.

I can't remember seeing what airplane you fly. Is the O-390 eligible for installation into your airframe?

Purchased my new O360 from Superior and had Barrett build it up. Dynoed at 200hp. Out the door with everything including new Carb, Pmags and battery for 42$k.

AKT

Hammer wrote:

denalipilot wrote:New engine is required to make to 5% over stated Hp out of the box. 190Hp to you. Plus roller tappets. FWIW.
-DP

How exactly does that work? Higher RPM??

Actually, thinking about it now I'm not sure if that is any new engine, or just new engine models after the implementation of the rule. I bought a factory-new Lyc IO-360M1B three years ago that is rated 180, but ships at 190 or greater. The purpose being to ensure that it maintains rated Hp through 2,000 Hr TBO. The operating RPM range is the same, but in the case of the M1B it uses a cold-air induction sump to boost Hp. I was having pretty extensive work done at the time, and didn't track the engine cost separately.
-DP

Pinecone wrote:I can't remember seeing what airplane you fly. Is the O-390 eligible for installation into your airframe?

It's a 170B...not sure if the IO-390 is approved, but the injected fuel return lines and other oddities are a deal killer for me...just too much work/cost involved.

aktahoe1 wrote:Purchased my new O360 from Superior and had Barrett build it up. Dynoed at 200hp. Out the door with everything including new Carb, Pmags and battery for 42$k.

AKT

Does that include having a shop hang it, or did you do a lot of the work yourself?

I think Lycoming pulls it off with no return lines, but alas it matters not because I'm not aware of any STC for the 170.

Zzz wrote:I think Lycoming pulls it off with no return lines, but alas it matters not because I'm not aware of any STC for the 170.

Ditto. I have the Stoots Lycoming IO-360 STC for my 170B, and it has no return lines. Reading his website he has a similar header-less IO-390 STC for the Cessna 175. Might be interesting to call and talk to him about what he's got in the works. But I'm thinking Hammer already has an Avcon or DelAir conversion, and wouldn't consider spending the dough to swap from one 180 Hp conversion to a different 180 Hp conversion, or a 210 Hp conversion, for that matter.

denalipilot wrote:

Zzz wrote:I think Lycoming pulls it off with no return lines, but alas it matters not because I'm not aware of any STC for the 170.

You may be thinking of the Stoots Lycoming IO-360 STC. That's what I have, and it has no return lines. I'm thinking Hammer already has an Avcon or DelAir conversion, and wouldn't consider spending the dough to swap from one 180 Hp conversion to a different 180 Hp conversion. Or 210 Hp Conversion, for that matter.

Haha... I was just about to reply that it's the 390 but you ninja-edited to add 210hp

Simon,

I sure wanted to see your airplane last May. Sorry we did not have more time to talk. Hope all is well.

Kurt

The condition of your engine is likely to be an issue in any case. Most folks are going to use their engine as a core to reduce the cost of the new or rebuilt engine.

I've flown brand new engines, factory remanufactured engines and field overhauled engines. I wouldn't be afraid of any of these, IF you can find a REALLY good local engine builder who you trust and who has a great reputation. I was lucky to find just that guy when my Super Cub engine needed rebuilding a number of years ago. Cheapest way you can go, and in that case, it wound up being a great engine.

Just as a point of reference, Lycoming NEVER reuses cylinder assemblies......so if you send your engine to Lycoming for a factory overhaul, you will get brand new cylinder assemblies. That is huge in my opinion. And, that's the reason that Lycoming factory overhauls are a bit more expensive than most field overhauls. Frankly, many if not most of the issues we have with engines has to do with re-using cylinders over and over.

So, my recommendation would be to find a great local engine guy who'll rebuild it for you, and who has a great reputation. Bear in mind that just because someone has an A and P certificate does not imply that they're really the best person to overhaul an engines. In fact, a high percentage of mechanics simply won't rebuild engines, for good reason. You need a specialist.

And, since the factory has nothing but specialists working for them, my other choice would be to ship your engine in to Lycoming for a factory overhaul.

Would I buy a new engine? Probably not, if those two options were available.

MTV

Hammer, just sent you a PM with some info.

Cary

Hammer wrote:Seems like this should have been covered, but I couldn't find anything.

I'm a few years away from either rebuilding or replacing my Lyc O-360. I'm trying to figure out how much of a price difference there is in rebuilding mine vs. just buying a factory new engine. Part of that decision is the cost exposure of sending my engine out only to find that critical parts are no longer useable, and part of it is down time.

There's a log-book issue with my engine. I've apparently lost the logs from before the last rebuild. I don't know if they're recoverable, but if not then I really don't know how many times the engine has been rebuilt.

What's the cost to remove and ship a engine and have it torn down to the point where they can tell what's reusable?

What's the value of a run-out engine that may or may not be rebuildable?

Has anyone bought a new O-360 and hung it and kept track of the associated costs?

I realize there's no easy answer, but if the difference in cost is around ten grand, and the potential down time and unforeseen expenses are greatly reduced with factory-new, then it might make more sense to buy new and avoid the risks.

Just curious what other people have encountered going down the same road before me.

thanks

I did this evaluation with my 0-360 a few years back and learned a few things. I ended up going with a Western Skyways "Gold Seal Reman" (which only means they use "NEW" tolerances). My engine was lunching itself and the filter was getting full of metal. I called Eric at WS and he found me a set of cases that had half of the life that my engine had, crank and rods etc.. They will build up the engine the way you want it. I insisted on new LYCOMING cylinders and a new LYCOMING cam. They were pushing some aftermarket products but you don't see the AD's with Lycoming that the aftermarket had/has. I pushed back. They balance the rods and other engine internals to a greater degree than even the factory according to their techs.. I took a tour of their shop and was impressed.

Skyways isn't perfect but they have a test cell and run the motors for 90 minutes or so before you receive it so it hopefully unveils any abnormalities.. and they have a decent warranty. I never used it.

When the engine was built up and finished we met at a halfway point and exchanged motors in the backs of our trucks. This would take care of your "waiting" issue if you have time to forecast.

Their motor was stellar and smooth for the next 600hrs until I sold the plane. My old engine was assessed a $500 hit for a BER camshaft but I knew that going in. All in it was 16.5k plus cam-core $500 but that was 7 years ago.

When I shopped for the Factory Rebuild option I learned that Lycoming would only accept my old motor (core) if it had passed through their service centers / factory within the previous 25 years. Meaning they had to see my serial number in their system or they wouldn't accept my core - obviously jacking up the price. Deal-killer for me. I've heard this policy and others change with the winds of the economy. When times are lean they will bend a little on their stance. YMMV.

I would like to try the newer roller-tappet engines when I win a lottery- A good friend here at the airport operates 12 Archers (0-360-A4M) for a College flight school. They only buy Lycoming Factory rebuilds and he loves the roller tappet motors… he believes he can tell that they run smoother and he thinks the Camshafts are in better shape after 2,000 hours than those without rollers. Their fleet flies daily and he says he has only had one engine in 34 exchanges that was tired enough to retire at 2,000 hours even though they are bound by liability to exchange them then. If you have the scratch I would consider this option.

My .02

Good luck

Hammer
I pretty much support Six Two L. The only problem I can think of that would worry me is: How many times has your case been shaved and line bored. There has to be a limit on how thin they can be shaved down to.
Well I would suspect that last sentence but cannot quote you book and verse about it. Chris C