I would like to get your opinions on how to best approach some airplane owners to inquire about renting to me.
The reason I ask is that the more I discuss flying with people, the more I hear about "Old Jim has a plane he never seems to fly anymore...".
I have very limited access to rental aircraft and haven't committed to owning my own quite yet.

A few topics that I've found to be a little grey include:
- Must I have renters insurance?
- Does the owner need to make any changes to:
a. His insurance policy
b. His maintenance schedule
- How do I prove the craft's airworthy?

It about kills me to drive by my neighbors place equipped with a 2000' grass strip and a tri-pacer in the hangar and know that it doesn't get used.

Thanks in advance for any help.
SD RAT

I can't speak for every insurance policy, but my policy insures me with lesser requirements than anyone else. When I got the policy it wanted me to have a CFI checkout in the type, anyone else needs 100 hours in type or something like that. Though if the owner were willing a phone call could probably figure out what it would take to add someone explicitly to the policy and then you could pay whatever additional premium that added?

The owner COULD put you on his policy as a named insured, but unless you also have a waiver of subrogation (and you probably won't get one), you really need to have renter's insurance in any case. Remember, the owner's insurance insures HIM (or her), not YOU. They will cover the owner's loss, but they MAY come after you to pay for the insurance company's loss. That would be the beginning of a very bad year for you.

Get renter's insurance, it's really not that expensive, especially if you're going to try to rent something fairly inexpensively.

As to airworthiness, look at the maintenance logs. Make sure it's been signed off for an annual inspection. Also, bear in mind that if the owner is actually renting it out, he or she is going to have to also have 100 hour inspections performed, which cost just about the same as an annual. Its' hard to even come close to breaking even by renting out an airplane unless it gets used a LOT.

Good luck, I suspect you'd be as well off to head to the local flying school, or look for or form a partnership or club. AOPA has some guidance on line on how to start a flying club.

MTV

Talk to some insurance companies about this. The "renters" insurance I use to have was actually called "non-owners" insurance and if I recall correctly covered me in any aircraft that I did not own up to the amount I paid for (whether I was renting or just flying someone else's airplane). If you are just going to fly one airplane that someone else owns it may be more cost effective to just be added to the policy as a partner on the airplane. Shoot, if someone is not flying their plane you might find a deal where you offer to pay for the insurance for the year in exchange to fly! Good luck!

CW

mtv wrote:The owner COULD put you on his policy as a named insured, but unless you also have a waiver of subrogation (and you probably won't get one), you really need to have renter's insurance in any case.

I thought that was the entire point of putting someone else on the policy. Bizarre.

rw2 wrote:

mtv wrote:The owner COULD put you on his policy as a named insured, but unless you also have a waiver of subrogation (and you probably won't get one), you really need to have renter's insurance in any case.

I thought that was the entire point of putting someone else on the policy. Bizarre.

Depends, read the policy provisions, and ask the questions. Pilots (myself included) are generally unaware of many of the traps there can be in insurance.

If you're in a club, or rent, or borrow, get renters insurance, otherwise known as non owned aircraft coverage. One boo boo can ruin your financial well being, and remember, rental airplanes get flown by a lot of folks, some of whom may abuse them. And you have little to no control over maintenance.

So, you're flying a rental, and the engine fails, for whatever reason, but not your fault. You park the airplane in a hay field...did a great job, nobody got hurt, but pretty well used up the airplane....

Insurance totals the plane, pays the owner, then subrogate so against you to recover their loss. Or, insurance pays and doesn't subrogate, but the owner got nailed with paying that $10 K deductable, and they come after you to recover that $10 K.

Cheap flying can get expensive.

MTV

mtv wrote:

rw2 wrote:

mtv wrote:The owner COULD put you on his policy as a named insured, but unless you also have a waiver of subrogation (and you probably won't get one), you really need to have renter's insurance in any case.

I thought that was the entire point of putting someone else on the policy. Bizarre.

Depends, read the policy provisions, and ask the questions. Pilots (myself included) are generally unaware of many of the traps there can be in insurance.

If you're in a club, or rent, or borrow, get renters insurance, otherwise known as non owned aircraft coverage.

I can say definitively that our club insurance *does* cover the member. I got that in writing prior to dropping renter insurance when I joined.

I've got a note in to my broker about my current plane and the other scenario where I lend it someone appropriately qualified.

That neighbor's Tri-Pacer reminds me of the Tri-Pacer I, and many other poor boys, rented, for ten dollars per hour wet. That one got lots of use. I went out one day, preflighted, got in and reached under the seat for the starter. Dead battery. I got out and pulled it through a couple of times to get the impulse coupler set for propping. Someone had not set the prop up right for propping. It stopped straight up and down. I noticed that the prop was very close to the nose wheel. I opened the cowl back up and had my buddy pull down on the prop. Broken motor mount.

Both airplanes that are used hard and put up wet and airplanes that are not used have problems. Good luck and be careful.

The owner pays for insurance to protect their investment and liability. Not yours. Having you on their insurance ensures they will have airplane repairs covered and be covered for liability when you crash their airplane into a schoolyard full of kids. But as mentioned, their protection doesn't necessarily help you.

Assuming this is an arrangement with a single person; whom you probably know to a certain informal degree; and they are not in the regular business of renting out their airplane.

The easiest solution is to have them add you to the policy as a named and insured pilot. You will in turn, pay the resulting premium increase. Generally they can put several people on the policy without issue. You need to review the policy but in the vast majority of cases, a pilot specifically on the policy is protected against subrogation. You then need to decide if the policy limits are enough for yourself and act accordingly. It's important that the relationship be generally casual, non-commercial, and not profit oriented for this to work out. In other words, covering the costs.

I will warn you that flying under an "OPW" or open pilot warranty has more risks. In certain cases, your interests may not be protected. Again, I can't stress enough, reading the actual policy will tell you exactly what is and is not covered.

If this is not possible, you can buy non-owner coverage through avemco and many others. Read the limitations, and if you accept the cost go for it. The good news is it covers most any non-owned/loaned/rented/borrowed plane. The bad news is its stupid expensive.

Your decision to carry insurance and how much is a business decision regarding your particular current and future personal and financial situation. In the end, you owe it to whoever is kind enough to permit this arrangement to ensure their assets are protected; whether or not you need to do so personally.

Regarding your other questions, this type of arrangement would not normally change any maintenance requirements. Of course, you still need to ensure its airworthy as PIC like you would any other plane.

I have seen this type of arrangement work before. It is not overly common, but over the years there have been individuals who have built a rapport with inactive owners and agreed on something mutually beneficial. The arrangements vary, but typically it's more than just cash for time.

Welcome to BCP. Not the usual first post here, that's for sure .

I carry non owners insurance. I think it was $350 for 12 months at a pretty high coverage level.

CamTom12 wrote:I carry non owners insurance. I think it was $350 for 12 months at a pretty high coverage level.

That is pretty damn good. Avemco quoted me $950 for enough to cover the typical rental 182.

100/1mil/1mil
80k hull
250 hr, Private, IFR.

rw2 wrote:

mtv wrote:The owner COULD put you on his policy as a named insured, but unless you also have a waiver of subrogation (and you probably won't get one), you really need to have renter's insurance in any case.

I thought that was the entire point of putting someone else on the policy. Bizarre.

My policy says it covers me (named) and "ANY OTHER PERSON PROVIDED HE/SHE HOLDS A PRIVATE PILOT CERTIFICATE WITH AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND / INSTRUMENT RATING(S) AND HAS A MINIMUM OF 1,000 TOTAL LOGGED HOURS, INCLUDING NOT LESS THAN 250 HOURS IN TAILWHEEL AIRCRAFT AND 25 HOURS IN THE SAME MAKE & MODEL AIRCRAFT."

There is no discrimination anywhere in terms of what is covered in those circumstances.

idair wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:I carry non owners insurance. I think it was $350 for 12 months at a pretty high coverage level.

That is pretty damn good. Avemco quoted me $950 for enough to cover the typical rental 182.

100/1mil/1mil
80k hull
250 hr, Private, IFR.

I've got AVEMCO, too. Probably the difference is in total time and certificate level. I've got Commercial IFR in a couple categories. ~1600 total time.

I wouldn't have guessed it it would be a 3x difference though. That seems steep.

CamTom,

It may be the military training. I never paid much for insurance and I crashed a few. They always asked if you had any claims in the last seven years. It wasn't on purpose, but I always had a seven year or more spread.

Jim