Afternoon, we’re looking to replace our recently sold Wilga 2000 on floats with a C185 on floats. The reasoning is we need the ability to accommodate an extra passenger for the odd bit of family flying with our three kids we get to do, and are looking for the extra cargo space for when it’s working. The cruise speed will be a nice extra as well.

I’m an outfitter just south of the Alaska border in British Columbia on the coast, in transition to eco / adventure tours and will be hauling a good amount of freight. The Wilga was a spectacular bush machine, but very wanting in the cargo volume department. Little would hang with it on floats however from alpine puddles except a lightly loaded Beaver or big turbine.

What I come to the forum hat in hand to ask is, what vintage 185 would you be shopping for on a $150,000 US budget? We currently own a couple other aircraft and are familiar with the ins and out of purchasing aircraft, but on the particular vintages to shop of 185s we’re green.

Cheers folks and nice to meet the forum.

That looks like an interesting rig....how did you like the CAP floats on the Wilga? Are you thinking of using them on the airplane you're shopping for?

Like most Cessnas (and probably every other line of aircraft for that matter), the early 185s were lighter than the later models. The "Child Seat" or third row seat option was approved on all models, to the best of my knowledge. Hard to find those third row seats, because there's no way most pilots would put a human of any size back there, ESPECIALLY on floats. I sure wouldn't. I took delivery on a brand new C-185 in 1985, which came with that seat. That seat lived in the hangar for the next ten years....totally useless, frankly.

But, back to models of 185: The biggest difference in the 185 series was that early planes had the IO-470 for power, rated at 260 hp. Many of those engines were replaced with the later IO-520. For a working airplane, I'd stick with a 520 or a 550, though the 550 may be out of your price range.

Otherwise, most of the changes in the 185s aren't that huge in my opinion.

The nicest 185 I ever flew was a VERY basic 1967 airplane, which was, I think, the first or second year of the IO 520. It was a light airplane, and a great performer on EDO 2960s. To give you a notion of how basic that plane was, it had no fuel selector.....that was an option on 185s. The owner ordered it that way to keep it light.....seriously.

The next point, and the reason for my second question about the floats is that the 185 on CAP 3000s is a good performer, but you are limited on gross weight, and therefore useful load. Same goes for the EDO 2960s. So, neither of those floats would be my first choice for a working plane, unless you could find a REALLY light one. EDO 3430 straight floats or ideally, Aerocet floats would be the best floats for the 185 in a working environment.

Your repeated reference to hauling cargo, as well as the reference to 5 people, and working the plane, strongly suggest to me that your mission demands (not suggests) you go with a 206, NOT a 185. The cargo door on the 206 makes loading cargo, especially bulky or heavy stuff a breeze, compared to the 185. And the 206 has a higher gross weight to start. If you can find a light one of those.....

My understanding is that Canada has a requirement on the 206 now for a modification to the cargo doors to improve egress on floats, or a restriction to the number of passengers, which might limit the number of pax. One of the Canadians who post here can give you the specs on that.

That said, while underwater egress from the back seats of a 206 is difficult at best, egress from the baggage compartment of a 185 (which is where the 3rd row seat goes) is equally difficult, variable to impossible. Actually, the best egress would be through the baggage door, but there's no inside latch....
And, with one kid in that third row of seating, you will have NO cargo space.....as in none.

You'll doubtless be told on this forum that you need a Found Bushawk or Expedition, or whatever they're calling it today. I understand they're being put back in production. My experience with them is that they are a true dog on floats. The good news is they have large rear doors and a flat floor. I don't know if a third row of seats is approved or not for these planes. These planes are heavy empty, so GW was increased to provide a higher useful load. The Found uses a Lycoming IO 540 (at least the ones I've flown did) which uses a lot of gas, compared to the Continentals in the early Cessnas. Oh, and the Found is much slower than a 185 or a 206, while burning more fuel. The other point is that they are all pretty new, thus probably out of your price range.

MTV

Mtv, that is an unusually informed and helpful answer from what I’m previously used to on forums, and I thank you for that sincerely.

Indeed, the 206 has been on my mind, however 99% of what I do is me flying solo with dense items like fuel and food, and I’ll admit a preference for 185s for resale when the time comes. They’re rarely hard to get rid of it seems if you have a good one. I also may operate it on wheels for long stretches and the 185 wins there for the flexibility for where our cabins are.

As for the Wilga on the CAPs I literally couldn’t put enough in that plane to prevent it from taking off, with the big prop, very high lift and large wing (and admittedly draggy), and the 300hp it clawed out of anywhere. The small cabin probably helps in that recipe too, just can’t take much with you.

The performance almost can’t be exaggerated too much, the fellow I sold it to timed a takeoff with us and a lot of fuel (it holds 100 gallons, we had most of that) and it left the water in 7 seconds from the application of power. That’s impressive acceleration even by the standards of sports cars from a few years ago, and you feel it in the plane. Angle of climb can get eery as well. Visibility is incomparable to anything but helicopters with the large side bubbles, high pilot position, and big rear window.

This said, it is tiny inside, clearly built as a tug. If all I had to do was commute to little mountain lakes, I’d have kept her, but with a third kid and loads to move I’m eyeing Cessnas. If I was to move up, it’d be the Beaver, a plane it also looks as if you have a good deal of experience with. We’ve used chartered beavers extensively and I do often wonder if it’s time to expand the business line of credit to accommodate one. But I think an interim 185 will fit well for now. Appreciated the note on the kid / jump seat.

As a kid I rode around in the back of a 185 on that little seat but luckily for me I had a little brother and he was the one that got stuffed back there most often. If I recall correctly it was limited to 120 pounds total pax weight back there and like Mike said egress from back there would be very difficult. I owned 2 185’s and I always limited them to 4 people. Good luck in your search, I bet that Wilga was a blast!

Kurt

Thanks Kurt, she is a true pilot’s airplane, as a 20k+ hour mountain float fellow I hire put it, who also ran one for work. It’s just so damn small inside, but in flight is a gem.

For all the issues with the third row in the 185, it would actually suit us quite well. I have three little but adventurous kids, and we get to do a few day trips a year as a family to a local hot spring, etc. That third row would see a half dozen hours a year of pax use, but sure would be great to have the option. I can’t talk the wife into going anywhere that requires luggage in light aircraft anyhow, and in BC all the fun is usually within a couple hours.

I should have also mentioned the desire to be able to run wheels in theoretical future seasons on rough strips and gravel bars is high on the priorities, if we get a Beaver etc one day and manage to keep the 185 financially. That’s a stretch but dare to dream, so for now the 185 is the front runner for the collection of compromises I’m eyeing. It’ll also fit in my current hangar better length wise than the 206, which would have about 6” to spare.

Angus

Here's a link to the Type Certificate for the 185: https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... Rev_40.pdf

It's listed under Textron, not Cessna, since Textron now owns the Cessna line.

Anyway, you can compare models there. The older and slightly lighter planes were equipped with the IO 470, and I think you'll definitely want the 520, so I'd lean toward the 185 E or maybe the F, which was the last of the line. The very early E's had a slightly lower gross weight than the later E's and all F's. On floats, that really starts to matter.

I've heard of early 185s being retrofitted with an IO-520, but I can't recall what that requires, or if the gross weight also increases with that engine.

In any case, even the later 185s can be lightened up a fair amount, and if it were me, I'd look for a late E or an F, then work on lightening it up some.

If, as you say, 99 percent of your mission is you and "stuff" one of those planes should work fine.

My preference on floats would be EDO 3430 or Aerocets, but the Aerocets are going to be precious. The CAP 3000s are going to limit your gross weight a little, but they perform well enough, if you keep it fairly light. The only floats I'd really steer away from are the early PeeKay 3500 A and B models. They are doggy and heavy. Which is why PeeKay developed the 3500 C and D floats.

Good luck with your research. The TC should help some, then you'll have to decide if what you find for sale will meet your chosen parameters.

Don't get me started on Beavers.....I literally cried when they took my Beaver away and replaced it with a very nice 206.....but that's a different story.

MTV

These posts are exactly what I hoped for, thank you. I hear you on Beavers... and a brief look around the little alpine puddles we operate from. I’ll update the thread if and when I take the plunge, there are two at my local base for sale and one close by, one cream puff on aerocet amphibs that’s a stretch financially, a nice 1969 185E on straight Edo 2790s that’s more approachable for us, and a 1962 TSIO-540 powered 350hp amphib Edo 2790 get up on the edge of the financials but possible. The middle guy on straight floats is the most realistic target at present, but we don’t plan to pull the trigger til Jan-Feb and will hunt hard.

Why not look at leasing a Beaver for one season and see how it works out? Potentially you’d pick up more work, fly more passengers per load, and generally see an uptick in revenue and efficiency. If it works out, buy one for year two.

Your fuel cost and insurance cost will increase but maintenance may actually go down a bit. I’m told dispatch reliability with the beaver is better.

Beavers are available for lease. I don’t know any first hand, but can probably find you someone to talk to about it.

Capital cost shouldn’t be a barrier. Interest rates are low.

It’s definitely crossed my mind, and was the planned trajectory, we use hired Beavers extensively and are very familiar with working out of the Beaver. Capital cost is still very much a factor as I hate debt and believe it’s toxic to a business even if currently cheap, and I’m at minimum looking at double for a quality Beaver with good times compared to the 185s we’re shopping.

Fuel burn and logistics are more difficult to accommodate too, then there’s our hangar and office which isn’t big enough for a Beaver. Moving out of that into a bigger space is another big expense. 985s aren’t cheap to operate either unfortunately.

The 185 works better for us financially, and we just hire beavers and caravans as required. It “fits” well and has excellent resale for when we do want to go bigger, if we get there, I’d rather scale with the work than go as big as we can immediately. But you’re damn right a Beaver is the dream, I just don’t know if we’ll ever be able to justify it. I’d be very happy with a good 185 and make it work, we got by with the Wilga and it’s much more limited in all but where it will get in and out of.

How about a Helio Courier? Are you running the aircraft commercially or just flying gear with it?

The Wilga always reminded me of a dragon fly in looks and flight ability.
Met a retired ATP pilot on Maui a few years back that was flying coverage of sporting events for ESPN and such, he was covering a PGA tournament there and was flying a Wilga. Said it was easy to ship commercially around the country and was great at slow flight for filming.

I’m in Alaska and fly a 185F model with an io-520. I really like the performance and ability of the my plane. Only real upgrade I put on it is the sportsman stol kit. I can carry a heavy load equal or close to a 206, ( I don’t have the wing ext increase) and at other times fly solo and dial things back and put it in some relatively short strips and burn under 10 gal an hour. I’ve been very please with its ability.

As mtv said though, a 206 would be much easier to load and unload than the 185 with heavy cargo. Passengers: I think the 185 is just as easy,(stock airframes). Also: I have the third seat for mine. I installed it once about two years ago and asked my signification other to try sitting back there. She did, her answer was “ no way” for an adult, maybe a child, but who would want to place them back there with such a difficult place to exit from. I removed the seat and haven’t reinstalled it since. It would work in a pinch but I just decided 4 peeps is enough.

Not sure about Canada but there is a current AD note requiring tail horizontal stabilizer attachment inspection for the 180,185 and 182 for corrosion and cracking. Maybe something to keep in mind when looking.

Other than that I’ve got nothing negative to say about the 185. I‘m very happy with it and always amazed at how much it will carry.

Cheers
Nathan

The 185 will be run under an OC / commercial, and having come from operating a boutique type (albeit a tough one, like the courier) that gave me no issues, I always drooled wantingly over the ubiquity of Cessna STCs, mods, and accessories. Basic things like raised fuel caps, or lighter seats, I’d have killed for in the Wilga.

While I do appreciate the thought and always welcome suggestion, I understand I’m on the internet where it becomes pinball of ideas, as interesting as they are. We’re very much 185 shopping, and will be looking for the cleanest, straightest 520 powered machine we can find.

And thanks Putz, love hearing “lived with” information. Indeed the Wilga handles beautifully, lifts like hell, and has great viz... just no interior space, and a 100kt cruise on floats at 17 gal an hour. An ideal glider tug, or survey / photo platform as it loves to be at 60kts and float forever, all its drag is heavily reduced at low air speeds and it finds its happy place.

Fair enough. I know how it goes to shop for what you want. I just thought I'd mention it as I know of a nice one in Dawson Creek. I'll keep my ears open for a good 185 for you. I work on 3 and they are great aircraft, none are for sale however.

Btw: your office window has some incredible views!

I fly quite a bit of heavy loads remotely. Supplies, fuel, etc. There are times ( not regular but occasionally) when a few inches in cabin width afforded by a 206 and such, would have made things much simpler. Enough to justify changing to that platform: no.
Sounds like you’ve got that figured out though.

Right on A1, I’m flying rotary (the day job outside the season, and there’s a lot more day job during Covid) between FSJ and Fort Nelson right now. Lotta respect for the courier and it’s got the seats, I just want to go to a simple, easy to modify and maintain machine this time with a healthy amount of room and a good cruise speed.

Putz, yep I know that deal! Loaded a lot of 206s as a low timer back in the day with freight, and then loaded lots of hired 185s in the current gig. Can definitely make the 185 work for what we do. And it just fits every aspect for us, the hangar, the family in a pinch, the mods available, the resale... Will update as we go, won’t be fast, but will be sure not to forget the thread however we go. The gross weight change was a big note, and I’ll be watching for that, as well as the horizontal stab AD. Thanks guys!

Right on. Probably talked to you in the morning a few weeks ago. I was in and out if FSJ doing a few annuals with my 206 and lots of rotary traffic in and out for sure. I'm over in Alberta, but don't mind flirting with BC every now and again. Haha. Good luck with your search, and if I hear of any I'll let you know.
David

I can speak to the Skywagon third row seat; we have one for our 180.

It was useful for a period of time between car seats and about 10 years old. With one kid vs. two back there a little older. It allowed me to carry 5 or 6, mostly on short hops to neighboring lakes. These trips were a lot of fun. Two dads, four kids, or me, five kids...My kids are 6’4, 200+ now, so the seat is in the hangar for now.

Key point on egress. My baggage door has an inside latch; I would seek one out if carrying anyone in that last row.

I haven’t seen anybody comment on the Edo 2790 amphibs. I have no experience with them, but I hear they are dogs on a 185. You will long for a 7 second takeoff run that you’re used to. They’ll also severely limit your useful load.

I’d consider the Wing-X extensions too. The extra lift is great although I don’t know what the STC will give you for gross weight on a 185. On my 182, it gives me 300#, which is A LOT.

An inside latch has been discussed for that 3rd row, but be careful. I read a very chilling NTSB report one time where a toddler opened and fell out of the baggage door while in flight.

Ross

More great info, thanks guys, that’s exactly what I envision right now for the third row, I have three kids 10 and under. We’ll get almost a decade out of that back seat for short hops cycling the smallest back there, when out playing with the family. The thought of that accident report is heart wrenching as well, sobering thought.

Great info on the Wing-X extensions, too, went and checked them out good for 175lbs in the 520D powered 185 and still fit in my hangar. That’s money likely worth spending for the short water alpine stuff we do.

A1, I’m north a good ways in camp, but end up in FSJ every two weeks. Then Friday it will be Atlin, and fly all the way down to Pitt Meadows if weather allows. Putting some miles on this month.

As Kurt said, I flew around in that third row throughout my childhood. (I don’t remember Kurt EVER having to sit back there—he always had the co-Pilot seat.

And for that reason, I never had a 185 while Kurt had two over the years. I just have those back seat memories, I guess!

But the Wilga, man that looks like fun.