Backcountry Pilot • Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

pipeliner wrote:I haven’t seen anybody comment on the Edo 2790 amphibs. I have no experience with them, but I hear they are dogs on a 185. You will long for a 7 second takeoff run that you’re used to. They’ll also severely limit your useful load.

I’d consider the Wing-X extensions too. The extra lift is great although I don’t know what the STC will give you for gross weight on a 185. On my 182, it gives me 300#, which is A LOT.

An inside latch has been discussed for that 3rd row, but be careful. I read a very chilling NTSB report one time where a toddler opened and fell out of the baggage door while in flight.

Ross


The problem with EDO 2790 amphibs and 2960 straight floats both is two fold: First is that pilots tend to overload them, a common occurrence on underfloated airplanes. In an airplane with big floats, you can get away with a little extra, but the GW is limited on these floats to start with, and pilots seem to forget that fact.

Second, these are some of the longest floats made. It’s really easy to drag the afterbodies of these floats, trying to “encourage” the thing to fly. This often right after the pilot ignores the gross weight limitations, btw. But even with legal loads, these floats require very different technique to get them to perform.

And, the amphibs are heavy forward to boot. Not my favorite floats.

One of my favorite 185s, however, was a really light 67 model on 2960 straight floats. It would haul a load because it was light, it was fast, and just a sweet plane to fly.

The wing extensions are what every float equipped 185 always wanted....if they’ll fit in your hangar.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Holy Shit, what a nightmare....

"An inside latch has been discussed for that 3rd row, but be careful. I read a very chilling NTSB report one time where a toddler opened and fell out of the baggage door while in flight."

I don't think i would ever be able to fly again after an incident like that.
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Hi Angus.

Good luck with the transition to ecotours. It seems that hunting is a dying industry in your part of the woods. I've known a few outfitters that made the transition and did well. Most of the things both parties like are the same, but the outcome is different. One thing I've noticed about the ecotourism industry is that it is difficult to maintain the high-quality, low impact of hunting. People just aren't willing to pay as much for most non-consumptive uses. The upside is that you get to introduce more people to your spectacular part of the world, and the downside is the same! But about airplanes......

Seems like you are on the right track with a 185, should fit you mission as well as anything. Of course there are Beavers, but my experience is that beavers cost almost an order of magnitude more to operate than Cessna's. And 206 is a better float and wheel plane for most missions with same operating cost but has neither the fun or wow factor, nor is it as good for sketchy off-airport ops or skis. As long as you don't mind being a bit closer to you passenger and loading through passenger doors, the 185 is a great all-around bush plane.

To your original question - in my experience I would not worry about year of aircraft. I would first look to general condition and then mods. I have owned or operated '59 180, '63 185, '74 180, and '75 185; and have flown quite a few other years. Some are better performers than others but it depends on mods and individual aircraft more than year. Were I looking for a machine for your mission I would look for one that has been well maintained either commercial or private. Salt history, damage history, and total time would not play into my decision - but condition and HOW IT WAS MAINTAINED would! Can only tell that by having a good Cessna mech look at it in person. A lot of abuse or neglect can be hidden by 'low time', 'never in salt', or shiny paint. I would look for a bird with a 520 or 550, no matter if it came from Wichita with one, a factory float kit, preferably on your float of choice, and a basic panel. Third row seats can be found from time to time and added in. Personally I like a Robertson Stol kit on floatplanes and skiplanes. A good 3 blade prop is also nice to have, with the Black Mac being the strongest pulling by a very slight margin in my experience. The old 2 blade seaplane props are reliable and light and give pretty good performance but are louder and tend to vibrate more.

Its a shame the Wilga had to go. I'd sure like to try one sometime, it sounds like it was a performer! But mission dictates aircraft and its hard to go wrong with a 185. The only real downside is though maintenance is not nearly as bad as Beavers or one-off types, it is still spendy. I recently sold my beloved '59 180 and am replacing it with an M7 due to change in mission and hopefully lower maintenance costs. I still have a 185 tho as mission dictates......
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Yea on the tours, frankly it’s a no brainer for us. The buyer of my hunting territory does viewing and adventure tours, and has a wait list. They want us to run them for them locally, and will provide the clients and marketing, and honestly, I got a bit tired of seeing things die. It’s hard to argue against a business that’s set up for you as well, less headaches and paperwork for me, and more time afield. It definitely is still work, but it’s work I can find a balance in.

I have nothing against hunting, will still hunt myself for the freezer, and am grateful for what it’s done for us and fully understand having been in the business that done right it’s renewable. My qualms are just too seeing too many heads put on walls, and some of the personalities you run into in the big money hunts. When I started feeling that, I knew it was time to transition, heart’s gotta be 110% in what you do. I’ve always loved the experience more and the adventure, happy to do without the kill, the animals were just the pot of gold to chase and reason to be out here. If I can have a new pot of gold that’s photos and experiences, I’m pretty happy about that, we’ll see how it goes will give it a fair shake, it’ll be the side gig for 3 months of the year which helps keep it viable. Especially if it justifies a new to us 185. Excuses excuses eh!

Appreciate that take, partner and I operate a straight aviation business in the day job rotary, and have subscribed to your same rules on selecting machines. Maintenance #1, and ignore the flash. You can tell pretty quick in the first five minutes of talking with a seller how they view and maintain their machines, and then get a proper go over and logs audit before cutting a cheque. Will be looking for a 185 with that pedigree, and agree on Beavers. I love them, but not sure I can ever justify running one for work.

As for Wilga 2000s... Visceral! Just a beast of a machine. It gave you almost too much confidence, I’m a career rotary guy and love the stick and visibility, it likes to be pushed around and reminds me of the astar in that way. Just solid, responsive, can see everywhere out of it, and lots of power. Just can’t fit anything in it! For me, the spar is always hitting me in the head too, get a neck kink after a long day in it.

Enjoying this thread a good deal.

Angus
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Ardent wrote:Yea on the tours, frankly it’s a no brainer for us. The buyer of my hunting territory does viewing and adventure tours, and has a wait list. They want us to run them for them locally, and will provide the clients and marketing, and honestly, I got a bit tired of seeing things die. It’s hard to argue against a business that’s set up for you as well, less headaches and paperwork for me, and more time afield. It definitely is still work, but it’s work I can find a balance in.


Good luck, and congrats on being willing to make a change. I have been in the guiding/outfitting business for almost 40 years (26 owning my own business). We have made several major changes to our business in the last 10 years for a variety of reasons to stay viable and relevant. I have seen too many friends/peers that have resisted that and just dried up as the market and other factors drifted away from them. Good luck with the plane search.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Angus,

There is a '79 185 on Skywagons.com for $159k. Straight airframe. Old avionics. At first blush it looks like it might fit the bill for what you are looking for. I have no ties or affiliation with them just saw it and thought it might be worth a look.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

An old friend in Alaska held a Master Guide license. He quit guiding, and I asked him why. He responded that he’d researched “justifiable homicide” statutes and figured that shooting one of his clients wouldn’t fit that category, so thought he should quit....

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

I hear you on getting tired of the hunting industry. I more or less quit it for over 10 years for the same reasons. But the majority of ecotourism I have been involved in is high-volume. You have to take 50-60 people per week instead of 1 person per week to generate the same revenue. And incase some think that sentiment is coming from pure financial greed, we must keep in mind that the total revenue generated is at its core a measure of how much value is placed on something by an individual or society as a whole. And there is something about taking an animal's life that makes it more valuable to some than just seeing it. I'll leave others to decide whether this is right or wrong. It could be blood lust or it could be the process of becoming part of nature instead of just witnessing it..... Either way, I often feel a lack of connection with the ecotour folk. Kind of a 'I'm bored so show me something cool' attitude. But I think that there must be a certain number of folks out there that have enough passion and interest to make non-consumptive use interesting. Then there is sport-fishing, that's a whole nother kettle of ......well fish. Regardless, I will be keen to hear your take on it after a couple years of the new venture.

Back to airplanes, here's another one that looks good for your use although the TSO is a little long on the 550

https://akaircraftsales.com/item/1961-c ... th-io-550/
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

mtv wrote:
The problem with EDO 2790 amphibs and 2960 straight floats both is two fold: First is that pilots tend to overload them, a common occurrence on underfloated airplanes. In an airplane with big floats, you can get away with a little extra, but the GW is limited on these floats to start with, and pilots seem to forget that fact.

Second, these are some of the longest floats made. It’s really easy to drag the afterbodies of these floats, trying to “encourage” the thing to fly. This often right after the pilot ignores the gross weight limitations, btw. But even with legal loads, these floats require very different technique to get them to perform.

And, the amphibs are heavy forward to boot. Not my favorite floats.

One of my favorite 185s, however, was a really light 67 model on 2960 straight floats. It would haul a load because it was light, it was fast, and just a sweet plane to fly.

The wing extensions are what every float equipped 185 always wanted....if they’ll fit in your hangar.

MTV


Thanks, MTV, for clarifying the issue with the Edo 2790 amphibs. I just remember my friends saying they weren't good floats on a 185, but didn't go into the details. I looked up the dimensions in my Edo book and saw that they're the same length as the 2960s. I'm well acquainted with the 2960s, as that is what I have now. Still trying to get used to them. Throw in an extra 200# for the amphibs and move the CG farther forward and I can see how they wouldn't be popular.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Mapleflt wrote:Holy Shit, what a nightmare....

"An inside latch has been discussed for that 3rd row, but be careful. I read a very chilling NTSB report one time where a toddler opened and fell out of the baggage door while in flight."

I don't think i would ever be able to fly again after an incident like that.


Ya, you and me both. Pretty sad.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

I noted the comments above regarding Beavers being high maintenance types.

I ran an amphib Beaver on Bristol 4580 floats for several years in Kodiak, and I was really impressed with how tough and reliable that airplane was. The floats had been "well used" and not well cared for, so first winter, the plane went to our maintenance base in ANC and they totally went through the floats. After that, other than glopping tons of various gooey products to prevent corrosion on those floats and parts of the plane, I found it to be a very easy keeper.

They are incredibly tough airplanes, and a Cessna in salt water every day won't last anywhere near as long as a Beaver.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

pburns wrote:
Ardent wrote:Yea on the tours, frankly it’s a no brainer for us. The buyer of my hunting territory does viewing and adventure tours, and has a wait list. They want us to run them for them locally, and will provide the clients and marketing, and honestly, I got a bit tired of seeing things die. It’s hard to argue against a business that’s set up for you as well, less headaches and paperwork for me, and more time afield. It definitely is still work, but it’s work I can find a balance in.


Good luck, and congrats on being willing to make a change. I have been in the guiding/outfitting business for almost 40 years (26 owning my own business). We have made several major changes to our business in the last 10 years for a variety of reasons to stay viable and relevant. I have seen too many friends/peers that have resisted that and just dried up as the market and other factors drifted away from them. Good luck with the plane search.

Pete



Thanks Pete, appreciate that, we realized a long time ago that the product was the experience, and that’s why we did well outfitting I believe. We did well in the booner heads on the wall / success quotient, but that was a compliment to the area more than us. Gets a little old though watching a grizzly / brown you’ve spent 3 years watching in a river get shot to be in some guy’s living room in the desert. If we can be successful selling just the experience, that’s something I’m excited to try.

I’ll always be grateful for what hunting has done for us, and always be a hunter, but I don’t need to see any more die for trophies frankly.
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

I’m not a hunter, but have had some interesting conversations with some outfitters. They truly are stewards of the resource in their territories. They can often chose which animals their clients see and have an opportunity to shoot at. What their clients are mostly interested in is the oldest males in the gene pool. They have the sought after trophy heads. These animals are frequently near the end of their natural lives. In many cases it is likely they wouldn’t get through another winter. Others of the species do go on.

Humans are a part of the eco-system. We don’t simply observe it through a glass partition. Our species has thrived, and put other species under pressure. There is an equilibrium that we are aware of. If we don’t respect it, Mother Nature will smack us back. It’s OK to hunt. The resource is renewable.

Locals can sometimes get upset at the outfitters, but the locals are hunting primarily for food and may not be as selective in what animal they choose for the freezer. Purely for food, younger is often better, and gender doesn’t matter. Not as good for the health of the wildlife population.
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

I’ve witness deHavilland airplanes being used for and doing things that would make the Cessna cringe and run for cover
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Pinecone wrote:I’m not a hunter, but have had some interesting conversations with some outfitters. They truly are stewards of the resource in their territories. They can often chose which animals their clients see and have an opportunity to shoot at. What their clients are mostly interested in is the oldest males in the gene pool. They have the sought after trophy heads. These animals are frequently near the end of their natural lives. In many cases it is likely they wouldn’t get through another winter. Others of the species do go on.

Humans are a part of the eco-system. We don’t simply observe it through a glass partition. Our species has thrived, and put other species under pressure. There is an equilibrium that we are aware of. If we don’t respect it, Mother Nature will smack us back. It’s OK to hunt. The resource is renewable.

Locals can sometimes get upset at the outfitters, but the locals are hunting primarily for food and may not be as selective in what animal they choose for the freezer. Purely for food, younger is often better, and gender doesn’t matter. Not as good for the health of the wildlife population.


That is Indeed the image painted which contains a fair measure of truth, and exactly as I described it to outsiders from the industry. Most of my colleagues, and myself fully believed it for the longest time as well. There are problems and bias in that description, admittedly. Our territory is 2,100 square miles of fully intact wilderness with no roads, and needs no management whatsoever. In fact, humans just get in the way here, like most of the true wildness.

This isn’t a greeny conversion of thought you’re listening to, just frank observation and biology; I personally will continue to hunt just not as a business any more. This said, hunting can be a renewable industry, though it is definitely extractive like all human industries. The amount we extracted locally was certainly sustainable in current times spread over that 1.3 million acres to be clear, my qualms with running an outfitting operation for a living are what I would characterize as a discomfort with some of the motivations you encounter.

Then, one of the biggest problems we’re starting to find with the trophy hunt model (take the biggest mature males) is the assumption they’re near the end of those lives, or surplus to the gene pool is beginning to become understood to be misleading. In fact, the largest, most mature males are some of the most important individuals to the gene pool and health of the population and they need to stay around for their full lifespans for the benefit of the population. They have a roll honed over millennia. There’s a reason they breed the most, they have the best genes, and those need to be spread, and there’s a lot of other work they do we fail to appreciate- that can be rough.

Big male brown bears, the most dominant of them can live thirty years, and be massive for twenty of those years. When your client from Texas encounters a nine foot bruiser with you who has a decade left of being King of the river, do you think most of us in outfitting will steer him away from his prize he’s paid a fortune to take? I got tired of seeing them fall, I’ll admit, to be full of styrofoam in some dusty room in Texas. I’m much happier watching the King of the river strut through his territory and make eye contact with you now.

The assumption we as outfitters are more knowledgeable or virtuous than other people in the backcountry, I really appreciate that benefit of the doubt, and understand the economic roll hunting can hold in keeping spaces wild such as in Africa, I spent time in hunting operations in Zimbabwe and elsewhere in Africa. However in truly intact wilderness like here, I’m best to just get out of the way and share the experience of an intact wilderness. Intact, unmolested wilderness is a rapidly shrinking resource, and honestly my true passion. I love the wild spaces, and the wildlife. Sharing just that, is honestly a dream come true, and here at least hunting isn’t required to keep it wild. I understand that’s different in other areas of the world, and have no interest in telling other outfitters or hunters they’re wrong. I definitely have a clear picture of what makes sense here, however.

The old product, and the new, cheers and enjoying this conversation!

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

I really appreciate your comments and perspective. It balances the opinions that I heard from those still active in the hunting business.

I have found memories of Telegraph Creek as a kid in the late 60s
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Good stuff had the weather worked out, I’d have been heading through Telegraph this afternoon. I’m enjoying this discussion and appreciate the chance to have it, it’s wonderful. Looking forward to making these photos with a nice clean straight 185.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

So is the aft bulkhead a little further back in a 185 versus a two window 180 to allow for that 3rd row? I was looking in the baggage compartment of my 180 and boy that'd be tight.
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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Oh, it's tight all right.....which is why I'd never put anyone back there. Great way to get a kid soured on flying, seems to me.

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Re: Replacing a Wilga 2000 floatplane with a C185

Fraser Farmer wrote:So is the aft bulkhead a little further back in a 185 versus a two window 180 to allow for that 3rd row? I was looking in the baggage compartment of my 180 and boy that'd be tight.


Saw that avatar and thought, “I know that plane!” Good to see familiar faces (And planes). I think you’re probably on the right track with your 206, but it basically won’t fit in my hangar at Pitt. Fair 185 fair from working with them outfitting too, seems easy to sell a good one if I change my mind too and go 206 in the end like you.
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