I have asked this question before and never got a satisfactory answer so here goes.

Re. the Las Vegas South sectional. Route BIH (Bishop Ca.) to CDC (Cedar City Utah). If I could fly thru R4807A that would be perfect.

R4807A says Times of use 0600Mon-1900Fri other times by NOTAM (FAA or DOT)
Contact Nellis range Con 126.65

Easy... No problem. So little old me gets over there and I call up Nellis on 126.65 and they will say no way Jose. (No NOTAM) 100% of the time. So I write a letter to Commander Nellis AFB and ask why. I get a letter with a telephone # that I can call and request a clearance to transit 4807A. Great. I call and once they find out I ain't military they want to know how I got their number. I told them I have a letter. BFD

OK now we get to the question. If I check for NOTAMS and there are none and it is Saturday morning can I just go through that restricted area? Will they shoot at me?

If Special Use Airspace is not published active (outside published active times) AND there are no notams to activate it for the time period, the airspace doesn't exist. You may fly through there.

I'd make darn sure there're no notams, though, and calling Range in any case might still be a good idea. But, if it's not active, they don't control it.

MTV

Academic discussion aside that's some pretty prickly airspace. I tried to go through there recently on a weekend (no Notam) and range wouldn't give it to me either. They owe you a better answer than runarounds with secret squirrel phone numbers but I'd sort it out before drilling in there on the argument that since it's not scheduled it doesn't exist.

Dude... if I'm remembering correctly, 4807 is part of the Groom Lake/Tonopah Test Range complex. If so, you're pissing in the wind even 30 years after the wild stuff went down over there.

I understand it's used for a lot of drone and UAV testing now, "over the horizon" communications, and such. The old Indian Springs Base and/or Tonopah Test Range base (now Creech AFB I believe) is still playing an integral part in the operation of the UAV's overseas.

Even though the stealth program and all the wacky Elvis/alien/UFO/foil hat stuff was many years ago, there's still reportedly a lot of classified things being developed there, and it is still a very sensitive subject for the black SUV crowd. There's probably people on this forum who know a lot more about this than I do.

IMHO, making a dogleg in your flight path to Tonopah municipal and then around the test range into SLC should be a heck of a lot less headache, and the toilet paper in your house won't have a microphone in it.

All good advice, but CALL THE FAA and ask THEM if the military controls the airspace during times when the restricted airspace is not active. Then, the FAA (Air Route Traffic Control Center--"Center") owns the airspace, so there is no need to contact Range control. They are the USING agency. ARTCC is the "Controlling" agency, and can clear you through there pretty much at any time, though it's highly unlikely if it's active.

I would bet that Center won't give you a vector through restricted airspace either, for CYA reasons. But, if it's not active, it's VFR. Sorry, this is NOT Prohibited airspace.

It doesn't matter what sorts of classified activities go on there. If the airspace isn't published or notam'd active, it EFFECTIVELY doesn't exist.

Call your local Flight Standards District Office and ask them the question.

MTV

Your right about it saying Mon Fri etc. but I've always believed that whole complex is restricted with no chance of any GA traffic in there. Myself, I stay out of there.. MOA's ?? I don't pay any attention to them at all, I live in one, but that area?? Not for me..

Oh, and one of my freinds did fly through there once. just clipped the corner, and they scrambled jets, followed him, met him on the ground when he landed, took his film from his camera, had to answer lots of questions, threatened to take him to Vegas, they were serious...

Are you shittin me There's alien space ships and military activities going on up there. The aliens are spying on the military and the military is trying to catch the alien spaceships that are spying so they can takem apart and reverse engineer them. And beside that there's contaminated nuclear dust coming off that area, just ask all of those Utah people. If you do go up there send us a message from your cell and let us know you're OK. Somebody's gonna get hurt, you'll shoot ur eye out (reverse engineer ur Maule )


http://www.lazygranch.com/restricted.htm
http://www.lazygranch.com/bg.htm

My pappy once told me,
"Son, when it comes to right of way, it does not matter who is right, only who is left over."

You don't talk to range control - you talk to ctr or approach and they check with range. Everything EZ & Pops said is spot on. It may be a Restricted area on the chart but it might as well be Prohibited.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who's been successful getting a clearance through there.

Vick wrote:Would be interested to hear from anyone who's been successful getting a clearance through there.

Well, there's some guys wearing civilian clothes (and short haircuts) who flew a couple of older 737's at Vegas/McCarran airport you could talk to, their aircraft were painted mostly all white (including the windows). I understand they used to go into that airspace on Mondays and out on Fridays. Call sign JANET, according to legend.

(Just Another Non Existent Transport)

My ex-girlfriend's father used to take that 737 to work. One day he gave me an embroidered patch for my jacket, with the cutest little caricature of a skunk on it. You probably never seen one like it

Also had an acquaintance ( a neat old glider guy, now in his late 90's) who used to fly on that 737... back when it was a C-47. But of course that was only on the days when the tunnel from Burbank wasn't open.

You can be our guinea pig. Make sure to check with flight service and record them telling you there is no notam. It could be an adventure!

Good day

OregonMaule wrote:You can be our guinea pig. Make sure to check with flight service and record them telling you there is no notam. It could be an adventure!

Good day

On the "old" sectionals the info is the same except that it says controlling agency is ZLA Center (ZLA is Los Angeles Center) and it says contact FSS for NOTAM. It even tells you that MON-FRI means Monday thru Friday. Sounds like they want to be very clear about days/times.

Also it says "aircraft landings in R-4807A are at the pilots own risk".

ADVENTURE "I feel the need, the need for speed".

I think if you check for NOTAMS you should be good to go. I will attempt to get another telephone number. Who knows I might try this. Plus on the East end of the area I will be able to look (but not fly over) South and see Area 51. Someone must have done this before.

OK here's the plan. Coyote Ugly and I meet at this lake bed some (date to be announced) Saturday. We camp out and fly out on Sunday. Route (37.5 -116.23) is in Red. Note: Unexploded ordnance might be an issue.

Cool, post a trip report. Extra cool if you can get any video of the interrogation.

Like they say, some restricted areas have a bigger "R" than others. I crossed the Sierras one time to Inyokern going direct from there to Tucson. I could have taken the usual route via Palmdale and avoided all the restricted airspace. On a whim, I called Joshua approach and they chaperoned me through the China Lake weapons test area and the Edwards complex. They gave me explicit instructions to stay clear of a couple of hot restricted areas and followed me all the way to the Colorado River. They had me change heading and altitude a couple of times for "head on traffic" which I never saw, so their stealth technology is working really well.

But, I agree. California/Nevada is a Rubik's cube of airspace. They even have restricted areas nested inside MOA's. Have you ever tried to go through that mess south of Fallon or fly that crazy tunnel along highway 50?? Going to the playa at Black Rock one time, I gave up and called Fallon and told them where I was going and asked for suggestions. They said to wait a minute and came back with "Just fly direct. It's OK today." Don't expect that every time.

Then there are the sneaky little ones. Check out R2531 near the bay area next to Tracy. It's a thumbnail and not very tall (4000 ft.). It belongs to the Lawrence Livermore National Labs and is the area where they test and perfect the conventional explosive components of nuclear bombs - the part that crushes the radioactive components into critical mass. Of course, if anything did go wrong, it would be on the day I was cheating a little bit on an approach to Tracy from the west...

As mentioned above, those particular restricted areas take you close to Groom Lake as well as a bunch of big holes we made with H-bombs at Yucca Flats and heaps of unexploded bombs and missiles out there in the desert. If they find you in a place they don't want you to be, they will just attach a TFR to your airplane... 'cuz they can.

"Also had an acquaintance ( a neat old glider guy, now in his late 90's) who used to fly on that 737... back when it was a C-47. But of course that was only on the days when the tunnel from Burbank wasn't open".
Henry was a (the) structural engineer for Lockheed started with them when they were building P-38s he retired in the 90's he said he couldn't talk much about that place.

Glidergeek wrote:"Also had an acquaintance ( a neat old glider guy, now in his late 90's) who used to fly on that 737... back when it was a C-47. But of course that was only on the days when the tunnel from Burbank wasn't open".
Henry was a (the) structural engineer for Lockheed started with them when they were building P-38s he retired in the 90's he said he couldn't talk much about that place.

(area 51)

We get vectors from LA or Oakland Center through that surrounding airspace all the time at 30,000+ when it is not active. We even get through there sometimes when it is active, but then we are switched to the military controllers.

The academic answer to the original question is, if it's not active then there is no restricted area. Fly on through it, without talking to a soul. Don't need approval from anyone. BUT, there is alot of restricted airspace very close by, that is active continuously. Fly your wingtip through that airspace and you'll soon get to make a lot of new friends!

O.K. I talked to someone who has done it a couple of times. His story is the same as my original post except that on his first attempt he checked NOTAMS and just went in. After he was well inside 4807A he called NELLIS control and asked for any traffic updates. They told him to make a 180 and get out. The controller told him R-4807A is never open to low life civilian aircraft. He asked for a telephone number to call and resolve this. The controller came back and said he was cleared thru 4807A. Cool...

His advice was check NOTAMS and just go but don't ask and don't talk to them.
I suspect this is SOP for them to just deny entry efery time.

It appears that 4807A was originally made available in 1995 but only on Sunday. So this has been around for a long time.