Split from a topic in Accident Analysis about two park rangers who perished in a crash, which spawned the topic of aviation regs regarding hunting and same day flying. The topic has been split out of respect for those who perished, as Accident Analysis topics should discuss cause and effect of accidents. -Z
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SixTwoLeemer wrote:http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12759732 and http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12769266

I've seen an accident trend this time of year. People out scouting wildlife for upcoming hunts meet their fate in the hills or foothils.

If the timing is wrong, this is against the law. Think Super Dave on this form is an expert on this.

In any case, it is sad to see this happen. Bob Plumber in Idaho was lookin for big horn sheep when he died.

Tim

qmdv wrote:

SixTwoLeemer wrote:http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12759732 and http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12769266

I've seen an accident trend this time of year. People out scouting wildlife for upcoming hunts meet their fate in the hills or foothils.

If the timing is wrong, this is against the law. Think Super Dave on this form is an expert on this.

In any case, it is sad to see this happen. Bob Plumber in Idaho was lookin for big horn sheep when he died.

Tim

I didn't realize this was illegal (if, in fact it was) but it doesn't sound like they cite pilots for doing it very often.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50447 ... n.html.csp

State laws and regulations prohibit using an aircraft to “locate, or attempt to observe or locate any protected wildlife” from 48 hours prior to a big game hunt to 48 hours after a big game hunt concludes.

Now how is this interpreted, before and after the hunt (season for everyone) or there individual hunt? If the second interp then they could hunt 48 hrs after they overflew that area. Is the press taking this out of context as usual?

I Nevada it is called molesing wild horses. Now Michael Jackson and I have two things in common. Both white and both molesters.

Tim

Utah has one of the toughest aircraft hunting regs I've seen. Basically the entire hunting season is closed to flying low and slow regardless if you are hunting that period of time or not or what you are looking at. Neither can you use your plane to fly into an area to begin your hunt or to fly home with your meat. Total crap if you ask me though I certainly support restrictions against harassment or same day airborne.

Laurie and Brent certainly knew the regs having worked in Utah for a while. Truth is no one will ever know what they were doing...Brent's girlfriend supposedly said they were looking for access routes for a camp but who knows.

Edit: having done my fair share of flying low and slow during hunting season here and elsewhere, in both helicopters and fixed wings, I can tell you that moose, caribou and elk generally don't budge until you are practically landing on top of them. Muleys and whitetail are a bit more skittish.

According to washington hunting reg's, it's illegal to use aircraft to spot locate or report location of wildlife for hunting piurposes. It is also illegal to hunt & fly the same day, except for regularly scheduled commercial flights.

So get your buddy to go fly and spot the meat. Mark the GPS coordinate then call your hunter buddy on the mobile phone. I never flew before I went hunting. Yea Yea

Good day

As quoted above, Washington reg's say it's illegal to "report location" but that one might prove pretty hard to enforce. I'm surprised that Alaska allows fish-spotting, that takes away the fair chase element -- but then again commercial fishing is about getting fish, not the thrill of the hunt.

Wow.......You'Re sure quick to jump to conclusions I think they were just looking for camping spots. Or maybe new ways to get someplace. The real story is don't forget to look inside the plane, scan those little gauges, and all around you. Never allow yourself to become fixated, this is a grim reminder indeed.

mr scout wrote:Wow.......You'Re sure quick to jump to conclusions I think they were just looking for camping spots.

That's what I thought at first too, but then I went back and read the article, which says they were "off-duty and scouting for an elk hunt." That's the news though, and we know how often they flubb the details of everything, so who knows...

According to washington hunting reg's, it's illegal to use aircraft to spot locate or report location of wildlife for hunting piurposes. It is also illegal to hunt & fly the same day, except for regularly scheduled commercial flights

I believe this is in the FAR/AIM as well.

The FAA could care less if you hunt same day airborne, or if you use an airplane to spot game. Not their job.

If you folks want to discuss this topic, how about splitting this off to another thread?

Two people lost their lives in an aircraft accident. Most likely, they were engaged in maneuvering flight. It really makes little difference specifically what they were looking at, and I suspect nobody in officialdom is apt to pursue a violation on a couple of people who are now deceased.

This is yet another tragic loss. Be careful out there people. Maneuvering flight is more complex than most pilots realize, and this is yet another example of just how mean it can get.

RIP

MTV

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:Utah has one of the toughest aircraft hunting regs I've seen. Basically the entire hunting season is closed to flying low and slow regardless if you are hunting that period of time or not or what you are looking at. Neither can you use your plane to fly into an area to begin your hunt or to fly home with your meat. Total crap if you ask me though I certainly support restrictions against harassment or same day airborne.

Laurie and Brent certainly knew the regs having worked in Utah for a while. Truth is no one will ever know what they were doing...Brent's girlfriend supposedly said they were looking for access routes for a camp but who knows.

Edit: having done my fair share of flying low and slow during hunting season here and elsewhere, in both helicopters and fixed wings, I can tell you that moose, caribou and elk generally don't budge until you are practically landing on top of them. Muleys and whitetail are a bit more skittish.

Seems to me that States don't have the legal right to regulate the use of aircraft under our constitution and the Supremacy clause, period ... no matter what the law supposes is the aviator's intent. The sole authority to regulate the use of aircraft in the United States of America is the FAA, period. That several states may have such laws on their books, under the guise of regulating fish and game, does not mean they are constitutionally legal if they violate the Supremacy clause of the US Constitution. More than likely, they have not yet been subjected to a constitutional challenge ... but perhaps any constitutional scholars who fly backcountry airplanes can correct me on this point.

nmflyguy wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:Utah has one of the toughest aircraft hunting regs I've seen. Basically the entire hunting season is closed to flying low and slow regardless if you are hunting that period of time or not or what you are looking at. Neither can you use your plane to fly into an area to begin your hunt or to fly home with your meat. Total crap if you ask me though I certainly support restrictions against harassment or same day airborne.

Laurie and Brent certainly knew the regs having worked in Utah for a while. Truth is no one will ever know what they were doing...Brent's girlfriend supposedly said they were looking for access routes for a camp but who knows.

Edit: having done my fair share of flying low and slow during hunting season here and elsewhere, in both helicopters and fixed wings, I can tell you that moose, caribou and elk generally don't budge until you are practically landing on top of them. Muleys and whitetail are a bit more skittish.

Seems to me that States don't have the legal right to regulate the use of aircraft under our constitution and the Supremacy clause, period ... no matter what the law supposes is the aviator's intent. The sole authority to regulate the use of aircraft in the United States of America is the FAA, period. That several states may have such laws on their books, under the guise of regulating fish and game, does not mean they are constitutionally legal if they violate the Supremacy clause of the US Constitution. More than likely, they have not yet been subjected to a constitutional challenge ... but perhaps any constitutional scholars who fly backcountry airplanes can correct me on this point.

The FAA does not regulate criminal conduct. Though the federal government has "occupied the field" in regulating air commerce and aviation in general, it has been held multiple times that when there is a nexus to a state interest such as punishing criminal behavior,
managing wildlife, zoning, taxes etc. the states/municipalities might have jurisdiction.

If there are any questions on this, call one of the pilots convicted in a state court of flying while intoxicated and who has lost all of their appeals.

I have talked to two different pilots in person that post on this forum that are experts on this subject. What makes them experts is that they had state and/or federal fish cops come to their house and give them a real bad time. It cost them bucks and also loss of hunting rights.

I have known one of them for several years and met the other this last August. They were both at Austin this last August and that is when they told their story to me. Very interesting. If they read this post and want to I am sure they could shed a lot of light on this subject. Then again, they might not want to tell the story to the whole world.

One of the planes had huge N numbers and the other was a very distinct color. If I paint my plane, I will paint it Piper Cub Yellow. That way most folks will even report a 182 as a Piper Cub.

Tim

I still don't see how you would ever get caught unless you did something really stupid, like brag on the internet how you broke the law or get drunk and mouth off in public. Not that I have ever done that. DOH!

Hello Backcountry Pilots,
I'm a pretty avid hunter and have noticed that the regulations regarding aircraft and hunting vary from state to state. Idaho for instance says:
"It is unlawful to: Use aircraft to locate game or fur-bearing animals and communicate location to persons on the ground, or to use any helicopter to transport hunters, gear, or game except at established landing fields". My interpretation of this is that a pilot could scout for game as long as he or she did not communicate with people on the ground and landed at an established airfield. The 24 hour rule does not apply in Idaho.

The Washington Fish & Wildlife states:
Using aircraft:

It is illegal to:
"Use an aircraft to spot, locate, or report the location of wildlife for the purpose of hunting.
• Hunt big game on the same day you were airborne for any purpose, except for a regularly scheduled commercial flight".
However, it is legal to hire a helicopter to sling-load your elk, or similar out of the field as a Part 133 external load in Washington State.

The Oregon Fish & Wildlife states the following is prohibited:
■ "Communicate information on the location of game mammals from an aircraft.
■ Hunt within 8 hours after having been transported by helicopter or fixed-wing
aircraft to any point other than an established airport adequate for fixed-wing
aircraft".
I guess if you don't communicate with people on the ground, land at an establish airstrip of some sort you are good to go. Oregon also allows the use of helicopters to remove or sling-load animals out of the field if you have the $$$ too.

Good luck out there. It is becoming a full-time job just staying out of trouble these days.

James


Spokane

Montana law Airplane Spotting
• Aircraft may not be used to locate big
game animals for the purpose of:
• hunting those animals during the
same hunting day after a person
has been airborne
• providing information to another
person for the purpose of hunting
those animals within the same
hunting day after being airborne.

There are two SETS of statutes regarding using aircraft in the taking of game.

The first set, and it is a SET, is the collection of state statutes which cover this sort of activity. While the specific regulations vary a bit in language, the general intent is pretty close for most states.

The other regulation is subsequent to the federal Airborne Hunting Act: http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/Airborne%20Hunting.pdf

The penalties under the Airborne Hunting Act include forfeiture of equipment, so violation of that one can be expensive if caught.

Back in the 70's and 80's, there was a LOT of this sort of activity carried out by big game guides in Alaska. A number of aircraft were seized, lots of monetary fines, and that sort of blatant activity has certainly been reduced.

MTV

The last week or so I have noticed a lot of people in areas I usually never see anyone. They are wearing orange, and appear to be heavily armed.

I keep my distance, and have had to break off some approachs on some ridge top landing areas because of these people. Can the FAA help me?