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Self reliance in the bush

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Re: Self reliance in the bush

mtv wrote:That sounds like a classic case of a tube pinched during installation.....which is VERY easy to do. Good quality tubes don't tear just because.


I don't disagree and even considered that possibility. The problem with it is a piece of data that I hadn't yet shared. That failure was my most recent one, so that tire had been installed and working fine for 300 hours. I don't know how to make that work with a pinched tube issue. Seems like it should have failed much sooner.
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Hammer wrote:
mtv wrote:Ah, yes, the old "Well, if you were half as qualified as I am" argument. :D

Tell me what you can do with a tree and an axe in a SURVIVAL SITUATION that I can't do in half the time with a good saw.

Not talking about around the homestead here.....talking survival.

I have actually built shelters, fires, and other survival tasks with a pruning saw, which takes only seconds to fell an appropriate size (2 or 3 inch diameter) tree.

And by the way, I carry a mallet with my tie down kit, so no need for an axe or hatchet to pound on stuff, either.

MTV


I'm not going to debate with you Mike. For whatever reason it seems like you're pre-programed to disagree with me :wink: , and in ten years I've yet to see anyone change your mind on something.

I'll cary and recommend what I choose, and you'll do the same. Sometimes they'll jive, sometimes not. I think everyone on here is savvy enough to hear different opinions and then thresh out what makes sense to them and what doesn't. A debate without any chance of resolution doesn't help anyone and just litters up a good thread.


Hammer,

I don't believe for a moment that I'm "pre-programmed to disagree with you.....case in point your assertions regarding knives. We both apparently believe firmly in a good quality folder.

But, I'm actually asking you what you would do with an axe/hatchet that a saw won't do. I didn't mean to be argumentative, and I apologize if I came across that way, but rather than offering examples of what you could do with a good axe, you just blew it off by saying with good skills you can do many many things a saw can't.

So, im asking you to educate us on the topic.

And, finally, if you read my first post on the topic of axes, my point was solely related to survival situations in VERY cold temperatures. I have no beef with proper use of an axe, but I really am curious what sorts of uses you'd put one to besides what I consider their "primary" use.

As to me having my mind changed, it's happened a lot, with good valid points.

So, enlighten me.

MTV
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

rw2 wrote:
mtv wrote:That sounds like a classic case of a tube pinched during installation.....which is VERY easy to do. Good quality tubes don't tear just because.


I don't disagree and even considered that possibility. The problem with it is a piece of data that I hadn't yet shared. That failure was my most recent one, so that tire had been installed and working fine for 300 hours. I don't know how to make that work with a pinched tube issue. Seems like it should have failed much sooner.


I've heard of pinched tubes failing some time after installation. A friend had one fail that the mechanic figured was a pinched tube with a hundred hours plus on it.

Flat tires certainly happen, no doubt. Good maintenance and vigience helps reduce the odds, but I'll probably have a flat next time I fly now..... :roll: :oops:

MTV
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Hammer,

I am a complete NOOB when it comes to back-country flying. (Though I've had some survival training in the military - some of which I even remember!) As a complete rookie, I'm absorbing information from this thread like a sponge, and would love to hear (read?) your viewpoint on the types of things that an axe will do easier (or better?) than a saw. I'm thinking I might want to include both, for different purposes. I know that I personally am more efficient cutting down small trees with a saw, but likewise more efficient stripping off the limbs, etc. with an axe.

Just looking for enlightenment...
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Axe is good cutting with the grain (splitting lumber) and a saw is good for cutting cross the grain of wood (felling a tree).

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Re: Self reliance in the bush

As a SAR guy it makes me smile read this thread and see so many people with a great attitude towards preparedness in their flying. I wish more of that attitude would bleed over from the backcountry crowd to other sectors of aviation. Anyone can have an unplanned night in the woods, not just those who go there intentionally.
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Lots of discussion about tire fixes. What's a tire? We only use sliders and floaters around here!

I have a small axe with me in the 'plane, and also a folding saw. In this neck of the woods, at least where there actually are trees, a small axe will quickly harvest the lower branches of black spruce, which are about the size of your finger, always dead and very dry. These make great kindling, but you need a saw to actually cut firewood for an all-night survival situation.

I carry "camping", rather than "survival" gear in the 'plane, so in a real survival situation I'd be VERY comfortable. And sometimes I'll change my mind when I find a nice spot or come across a good hunting area ..... or if I just "feel like" camping out for the night rather than going home. That's when good communications are handy: land, get out the sat 'phone, call to close your flight plan and give them your exact co-ordinates so they know where to look if you fail to show up.

I agree with those who promote going heavy on communications: ELT connected to GPS, PLB (in survival vest pocket when on floats), sat 'phone, InReach, handheld VHF - I carry them all. I'm confident of being rescued within 48-hours (weather permitting) and within an hour or two those at home would know I'm still alive and kicking.

In winter, your most-important survival gear is what you're wearing. Warm clothing is a must (I prefer wool and down). In summer, around here at least, bug repellant is number one on the survival equipment list. Mosquitoes and black flies can be debilitating and, without stretching the truth, can kill by causing a person so much aggravation that poor decisions are made. Similarly, cold can be demoralizing and hypothermia can creep up on you until your brain starts to fail and rational thought is out the window.

The other survival items have been adequately covered in a multitude of threads so I won't go there.
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Camping for me is:

Shelter or the means to make one
Comfort or the means to ensure it
First aid to take care of any damage
Energy and water sources to stay thermally active
Alerting others to my choices and location

Nothing wrong with bottled water frozen oranges and pizza in winter.

Oh, and bring a flashlight and a few matches.

GAP
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Hammer wrote:
I'm not going to debate with you Mike. For whatever reason it seems like you're pre-programed to disagree with me :wink: , and in ten years I've yet to see anyone change your mind on something..


LOL... Thats just his crusty nature. : )
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

So this thread seems to be wandering from self reliance to survival and back again. I've never really been sure at what point things go from one to the other, or specifically when someone is in a "survival situation", and when they're just doing chores like fixing a broken part while staying warm, dry, and hydrated in a manner or place they didn't expect when they got up that morning. I once read about a guy who was asleep in the back of a WWII bomber on a training mission over Yellowstone Park. He was awoken by the bail-out alarm, and thirty seconds later he was on the ground, at night, in the winter, 60 years before PLB's were even dreamed of. I recon HE was in a survival situation. I think most other folks are just doing chores.

MTV: apologies if I misread your attitude towards the subject, but this has the smell of something that can be argued to infinity without resolution, and I'm not interested in going there. I'm also not qualified to state whether there's a temperature at which axes become ineffective, but I suspect there is not...less effective for sure, but not ineffective. I do know that people have been using axes in the far north for as long as people have had axes in the far north, and saws are a comparatively recent advent. It wasn't until the late 1800's that steel mills were able to make quality saws for the consumer market, and they were prohibitively expensive for most people until well after WWI. And even then they were all but useless to a bushman who couldn't also afford the joiner, files, setters and a saw vice to keep it working, and had the knowledge to do the pointing, sharpening, and setting. The historical literature on axes doesn't make mention of a point at which wood cannot be chopped, but it does regularly mention warming your axe under your coat before starting to chop in very cold temperatures. Regardless...very few people are operating their Cessna's and Piper's at -35 degrees, and if they are, they damn well better not be getting their advice off a internet forum, no matter how good it might be.

I have a fairly exhaustive article on axes that will eventually be published, but here's the readers digest version. The fact that this is the readers digest version tells you something about how over-written the article is...

In a nutshell, my experience is that axes are much more efficient than handsaws or any other hand tool at cutting fire wood and harvesting tinder, and much more versatile as well. I've use both extensively and believe they compliment each other like salt and pepper, but the axe is superior for pretty much everything other than cutting firewood to stove-length. A lot of people have the opposite view, and I think a large part of that is because a handsaw comes from the hardware store in perfect cutting condition and requires about five minutes of use to master, at least for non-binding cuts, while an axe comes from the store in a condition suited to nothing other than splitting cordwood, and requires many, many hours of practice before its potential can be realized. I'm far from anything special with an axe, but with a proper small axe I can pretty consistently double the amount of firewood produced by someone with a sharp 18" hand saw. And a person with an axe can be productive where a person armed with only a saw simply cannot.

A couple simple examples: In an extended rain there can be no dry wood or tinder available, but the wood two or three inches deep in a standing dead tree is virtually always dry enough to light from a match. Accessing this wood is all but impossible without an axe, and incredibly simple with one. Likewise, a person with a saw and a knife can get a handful of fatwood shavings out of a blowdown tree, while a person with an axe can get a shirtfull of fatwood chunks in the same amount of time. A person on a beach or gravel bar where the only readily available wood is a large drift log can get as much firewood as they want with an axe...and practically no firewood without one.

If a tree falls across the strip after you've landed, an axe will clear it, regardless of size. A hand saw will not. An axe can chop through ice to get drinking water, or carve a snow shovel for the building of a snow cave. That chore is made easier with the addition of a saw, but it can be done with an axe alone if need be. It cannot be done with a saw alone.

An axe can cut wedges, and with enough wedges any piece wood can be split, whether for firewood or for lumber. A person with a mallet and knife can also cut and drive wedges, but cutting wedges with a knife is so inefficient as to change it from a reasonable chore to an arduous one. The same is true for cutting and driving stakes for tie-downs or pickets...I prefer to cut stakes with a saw because it gives a nice flat head to pound on, but in the time it takes to sharpen one stake to a point with a knife I can sharpen ten to a point with an axe. To each their own, but carrying a rather limited tool like a mallet instead of a very versatile tool like an axe doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Perhaps most importantly, an axe can be kept in top cutting condition in the field, while a saw cannot. Saws will stay sharp for a very long time if they cut only clean wood and are never pinched in a cut, but just a few cuts across a piece of sand impregnated driftwood and most of the efficiency of a saw is gone. It'll still cut, but not well...not fast. It just wears through wood like a skinny file. That piece of driftwood will dull an axe too, but the axe can be made shaving sharp again in minutes. A dull axe is just a tool that needs some attention, while a dull saw is about as useless as a piece of steel can possibly be.

There's no question that saws are safer. There's also no question that a large saw made for cutting timber is more efficient than an axe, but you can't cut timber with a saw for any length of time without also having an axe to limb, debark, carve and drive wedges, chop out binds, etc.. The reverse is not true...an axe as a stand-alone tool is unmatched for its versatility and productivity.

It takes skill to use and care for an axe...much more than it takes to cut arm-thick branches with a hand saw until its dull and then buy another one. But a person who learns how to chop well (which includes understanding timber) can literally use that one tool to turn a tree into anything they can imagine. Efficiently, safely, and quickly. That's the key to the city, at least where trees grow.

Here's a link to one of my favorite axmanship films. It's not very relevant to what a pilot might need to do, but it's a great film on many levels, and it shows what a person with an axe can do. Anyone who watches it and isn't gob-smacked by the quality of the axemanship hasn't swung an axe enough to know up from down. These guys are to a double-bit axe what Bob Hoover was to a Twin Commander.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc0mdjknbPM
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Hammer,
Survival or self-reliance, doesn't matter, I always enjoy a good tool discussion. I look forward to the full article.

Two points I'd disagree on though.

1. Depending on the snow condition, a saw can be much more useful in building a snow shelter because it can cut blocks. A guy could shape a long, machete-like piece of wood with an ax, but then he'd have basically built a saw. An igloo goes up incredibly fast if you have a saw and the right snow. If you have dry powdery snow, you're digging. And cursing.

2. Unless a guy has a wood stove in his survival kit, I wouldn't place much value in anything that can cut a log into firewood sized pieces. Cutting into 10' lengths maybe, but no need to cut anything to fit into the fire ring. Just burn the end and push up the rest of the log when appropriate. I've heard them called 'push up' fires, but most just call them fires.
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Thanks, Hammer. Interesting perspective, and I can't really argue with most of it.

You have once again misinterpreted my concerns regarding axes in the cold.....actually not my concerns, but rather those of some real survival experts. What I said was not that an axe won't work in cold temps. My point was that it is very easy to strike a glancing blow with an axe in cold temps, when that wood is hard as flint, and that blow can do a lot of damage to one's leg, for example.

Anyway, I wouldn't argue most of the points you've made. For me, and for a survival situation or "forced layover", a small saw does everything I need done. I'm not talking about living out there, and I'm not planning to be there very long.

And, not being very handy with an axe, I'll leave them to you.

Finally, if I hadn't flown at temperatures colder than -20 I wouldn't have done much flying. Our cutoff was -40 and I pushed that more than I should have in hindsight.

Oh, yeah...try making a hole in lake ice in the Upper Yukon Valley in the dead of winter with an axe.....that's why they make ice augers....with an extension, and a gas engine. :lol:

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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Every one's experience is different in the Arctic cold...so it's not Texas or NW USA I'm discussing. A little over 51 years of cutting wood up here has convinced me that if I can get a saw to work effectively it'll perform better for me than an axe in the cold for the tasks I require to survive.

Both will function, but when wearing heavy gloves or mittens any extended chopping chore is a risk due to handle rotation and blade deflection on cold azz wood. Ever chop a tree at -20-30F or colder? A saw will warm the frozen innards enough to cut as evidenced by eventual sap derived ice on the saw blade.

Now a few hundred years ago metal became available in the Arctic from immigrants (replacing worked stone and copper) and were the implement of choice. When saws became available both implements were chosen to commercially supply wood fired steam fed riverboats. Now we have chainsaws and Dewalt DC electric wood saws to deal with the cutting.

Most anyone can saw...chopping in the cold takes experience which initial survival situations may not afford.

I carry both and discard what's not the best in the situation.

GAP
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

Bigrenna wrote:
Hammer wrote:
I'm not going to debate with you Mike. For whatever reason it seems like you're pre-programed to disagree with me :wink: , and in ten years I've yet to see anyone change your mind on something..


LOL... Thats just his crusty nature. : )


Hey, I resemble that remark.... 8) . But, I'm on a softening up program.....working on a new Brittany puppy.....if that doesn't soften you up, nothing will.... :roll:

MTV
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

albravo wrote:Hammer,
............Just burn the end and push up the rest of the log when appropriate. I've heard them called 'push up' fires, but most just call them fires.


Sounds good in theory, but .....

In practice, that doesn't work very well. The ends get charred and fail to produce much heat. So you shove those logs in a bit further, have heat for a while and then the same thing happens. You end up with a 10-foot piece of charred wood.

From the start, whatever kindling you used to get the whole process going will be quickly burned up, and without a bed of hot coals under the ends of those logs, there will not be enough heat to keep them burning at all.

So you really need much shorter pieces that you can stack on top of one another, maintaining the hot bed of coals.

An axe is versatile, but a saw is the safest and most energy-efficient way to cut wood. I carry both.
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

On your other point ....

albravo wrote:Hammer,

1. Depending on the snow condition, a saw can be much more useful in building a snow shelter because it can cut blocks. A guy could shape a long, machete-like piece of wood with an ax, but then he'd have basically built a saw. An igloo goes up incredibly fast if you have a saw and the right snow. If you have dry powdery snow, you're digging. And cursing.


An igloo is an inferior shelter on most counts. That's why you will almost never see an Inuit (Eskimo) use one today. They have wisely given them up in favour of a new invention called the tent.

True, a carpenter's hand saw is useful for cutting snow blocks, IF you have the right kind and depth of snow. But if you're south of (or below) the treeline you won't find that kind of snow. Building a proper igloo requires a level of skill and experience that is well beyond what 99-percent (no, make that 99.94 percent of people will have). They don't go up "incredibly fast" .... even an experienced Inuit will take a half-hour to build one, which is about 28-minutes longer than it would take me to set up my tent. And while building (or trying to build) that igloo you expend a lot of energy, maybe sweat, and certainly get wet from the inevitable snow down the back of your neck.

A folding saw will not cut snow blocks.

The only good thing you can say about an igloo is that they provide an amazing degree of insulation, and are warmer than a tent, especially if built on sea-ice or a large lake where they trap the heat of the water beneath the ice.

Aside: the word igloo simply means "house" in the Inuit language, so us old-timers call them "snow houses"
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

In the boreal forest, those black spruce provide perfect poles to build a one man shelter. Make a framework, cover it with your wing covers, then cover that with spruce boughs to hold the snow, which you then pile on for insulation.. A little more to it than that, but not much. Keep it REALLY small to hold the heat.

Second time I built one, I was sweating all night, while OAT was -35. Too much sleeping bag......

I can build one of these in fifteen or twenty minutes.

MTV
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

By the way, my apologies for drifting this thread waaay off course!
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Re: Self reliance in the bush

mtv wrote:In the boreal forest, those black spruce provide perfect poles to build a one man shelter. Make a framework, cover it with your wing covers, then cover that with spruce boughs to hold the snow, which you then pile on for insulation.. A little more to it than that, but not much. Keep it REALLY small to hold the heat.

Second time I built one, I was sweating all night, while OAT was -35. Too much sleeping bag......

I can build one of these in fifteen or twenty minutes.

MTV

We learned to make these in the cold weather course up there. Very easy and VERY warm!
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