If you are at a uncontrolled airport and you are the only plane in the pattern doing touch and go's, how small of a pattern is to small?

Do you still fly the same pattern as you do learning with the instructor?

Is it rude to make it really short for practice?

I like to make it pretty small myself but is there any particular rule? Assuming your watching for other planes and listing/announcing on the radio.

If it takes you more than 30 seconds between touch and go's your wasting time.

If there is no one else in the pattern (and you know this to be true and not just think it to be true) then make it as short as is safe for you. It's only rude if it annoys someone. It's only dangerous if it presents a hazard to yourself, someone in the pattern, or someone on the ground. Be careful, use common sense, and have fun!

Depends, are you flying the CC or Cirrus?

If there is no one else there why go around the pattern, do an ag plane 180 and land going both ways??
GT

Blu, I'm always amazed at how quickly you can get your cub back around and back on the ground. That thing climbs like an elevator and turns on a dime. It's fun to watch. Out at Mack it's all good fun as long as it's safe. And it's great practice.

M6RV6 wrote:If there is no one else there why go around the pattern, do an ag plane 180 and land going both ways??
GT

That doesn't work real well when it turns out there's an airplane landing on the same runway you just took off from. Even if you make radio calls, maybe he's NORDO. A guy at this airport used to do this all the time, & he always managed to goof up somebody who was inbound to land. They'd set up t land on the runway he just called a takeoff from, then a minute later he's landing the other way. Better to just go aroud the pattern IMHO.
If you read the AIM, it sez all turns to the left unless otherwise noted, maintain pattern altitude until downwind abeam, & complete the turn to final at least a quarter-mile (that's 1320'-- perfect!) from the end of the runway.

hotrod150 wrote: If you read the AIM, it sez all turns to the left unless otherwise noted,

When approaching to land. Does not apply to departures.

When I fly, it really depends on why I am flying the pattern if I bother with a regular pattern or not. If I am out doing touch and goes to tune up my spot landing technique, I want to make everything by numbers and keep as much consistency in the pattern as I can. If I am dragging a strip to check it out, I may fly it from all four directions, high, low, fast, and slow until I figure out where/if I want to touch down and then I fly as much of a standard pattern as I can get depending on the terrain.

Pattern?..What pattern? Am I flying an Ultralight or a 747? Do you land a left pattern everywhere you go? Don't know about the rest of the folks here when I'm the only one IN the pattern I fly the pattern I want. When there is other traffic in the pattern, I try to get into the pattern that everyone else is doing, and use the two minute rule, and COMMUNICATE!!
To only practice and use the left hand Pattern for the kind of flying we do is a little ridiculus. WE must get used to landing any way that presents itself..left hand, right hand, straight in, steep approach, shallow approach, steep turning approach...etc. Even though like myself whose home field is pretty flat and open, when the area warrants it, I will practice all kinds of approaches and landings from any direction and any runway. I feel a good day of practice is a day when I land and depart all 4 runways no matter the prevailing wind at the time.
As far as too short...sometimes I approach the strip with no pattern..I do it from above and never go beyond any of the runways...it might save my life someday.

hicountry

I agree with you that we should be able to do all types of patterns and landings. HOWEVER, if you do not do the standard pattern or non standard where called for, you are violating FARs. The FAA can and probably will violate you if they catch you. If your non standard pattern in any way impacts another plane and they have an accident, you may be liable.

It does not matter if there are no other planes in the pattern or if the runway is in the middle of nowhere. Make sure you are not caught. Have very small numbers on your plane, etc.

I would also not put that kind of information on a forum. You were probably referring to something someone told you.

outlaw

Hypothetically..of course!

Some times it amazes me what you read!!!!
So every high performance plane that fly's a straight in approach is going to get violated, give me a break?
So every time time you an with an instructor for your BFR and he says ok engine out get on the ground, you will get violated?
If you are out at the little paved runway shooting touch and goes and there is only one plane lands there every 3rd day?
I guess there are some who read the AIM, which is just advice???? you can never stray!!
SO BE it!!
Some one tell me where it says (in the FAR's) that if I am taking off from a runway and there is no one in the pattern or on approach that I can not turn around and land on the runway I took off from. Where is the FAR that says I can't land down wind, Where is the FAR that says I can't change the pattern every time I take off?
If I am in the pattern then the pattern is mine. The Nordo guy should have come in over the strip and looked for other planes, correct? The guy with the radio should have said something on his approach to the field, correct?
Thanks GT

M6RV6

A straight in approach is a legal approach. You probably know that.

The traffic pattern FARs are fairly simple. I am sure we all know what they are. This is a free country and you can choose to fly by the FARs or you can deviate from them. If you choose to deviate and get violated, then you should not whine about it. If safety is a factor, then, of course you should deviate.

We have at least one FAA inspector who is a member of this forum. He, luckily, appears to be one of the good guys. There are some that are not understanding so I would be careful of what I say on a forum regarding deviating from FARs.

flyer

Referring to landing at airports (not farm fields, mountainsides, etc...) FAR 91.126. It's not a recommendation! The idea is to reduce the possibility of midairs where they most commonly occur----near airports. Note that this in no way prohibits straight in approacches.

Tom

In the CC when I'm out at a private strip with no one around I do really tight patterns (they seem just like a constant turn from takeoff to landing) that take me about a minute per lap. Great way to get a whole bunch of landings in a row in a short amount of time.

Original post!

If you are at a uncontrolled airport and you are the only plane in the pattern doing touch and go's, how small of a pattern is to small?

Do you still fly the same pattern as you do learning with the instructor?

Is it rude to make it really short for practice?

hotrod150 wrote:
If you read the AIM, it sez all turns to the left unless otherwise noted,


When approaching to land. Does not apply to departures.

FAR 91.126.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace--
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;

All I was trying to say is do what you want to do!
Touch and go-When you are landing it is the touch, When you depart it is the go.
If I take off as in the original post??!! And then change my runway of choice I am breaking no FARS by turning around and landing (STRAIGHT IN) on my approach to landing.
As I suggested an AG turn on departure is turn to the right a bit, then to land on the runway I just departed from, when I make my decision to land all my turns will be to the left!
If I am mistaken I very apologetic, but so far I have not seen where I am incorrect.
Agian show me the FAR that says I cannot change my runway of choice on departure!
Thanks GT

I know of an airport somewhere in Nevada you can do pretty much any type of pattern you care to. You might only come across one other fella that I know won't give much of a hoot what you do as long as you don't hurt yourself and or others

M6RV6 wrote:Original post!

If you are at a uncontrolled airport and you are the only plane in the pattern doing touch and go's, how small of a pattern is to small?

Do you still fly the same pattern as you do learning with the instructor?

Is it rude to make it really short for practice?

hotrod150 wrote:
If you read the AIM, it sez all turns to the left unless otherwise noted,


When approaching to land. Does not apply to departures.

FAR 91.126.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace--
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;

All I was trying to say is do what you want to do!
Touch and go-When you are landing it is the touch, When you depart it is the go.
If I take off as in the original post??!! And then change my runway of choice I am breaking no FARS by turning around and landing (STRAIGHT IN) on my approach to landing.
As I suggested an AG turn on departure is turn to the right a bit, then to land on the runway I just departed from, when I make my decision to land all my turns will be to the left!
If I am mistaken I very apologetic, but so far I have not seen where I am incorrect.
Agian show me the FAR that says I cannot change my runway of choice on departure!
Thanks GT

There is all sorts of "guidance" in the AIM on what the FAA considers to be "good operating practices" at uncontrolled airports. While that is "guidance" and not regulation, the fact of the matter is that if you DON'T follow that guidance and conflict with someone else who IS following that guidance, here's the two regulations you are apt to be charged with violating:

§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation.

(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

or:

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

Don't believe it? Consider the notion of straight in approaches at uncontrolled airports: Clearly, the regulations don't prohibit us from conducting a straight in approach, right? Okay, so how far out does a "straight in approach" have to START to be a straight in approach? The FAA has successfully prosecuted folks for turning final from 2 miles out, when they claimed that they were flying a straight in approach. They made a RIGHT turn to final, by the way--the actual violation.

If you are doing your 180 after takeoff to return to land, and you get in someones way, even if they're not talking on the radio....you MAY receive a visit from the FAA.

If you'd like to fly non standard patterns, go find a hay field or a meadow or a ridge top and do them there. Uncontrolled airports are uncontrolled, not OUT of control.

MTV

Mike
Thanks for your help, I appreciate your knowledge of the regs.
That pretty much sums up all the arguments or discussion on this subject.
As in the original post There were no other aircraft in the area or pattern!
All I was trying to do is make everyone THINK! about it.
And as I ask in a couple of posts so far with what has been noted.
There is no FAR that makes me go away from the airport on departure a measured distance or elavation before I can turn around and land the opposite way from which I took off.
Please let me know what wording is used to sway me from being able to do this.
As is stated the AIM is for guidance. And as stated if I don't conflict with anyone then I am OK.
I agree that if I conflict with another aircraft on the ground or in the air then I have a problem and will have to alter my flight pattern to not conflict.
Thanks GT