Hi guys, I've been reading a lot on the forum but first time on a topic!

I recently bought a Cessna 185 and I am looking to put it on skis. I have many commercial hours on floats, but nothing on skis and I'm looking forward for it! I've read a lot about it on the forum and decided to go with penetration skis. I have a local pair of SWS 4000 for sale and they are in a very good condition.
I've red here that they are decent for a 185, but my question is more about the installation. They were previously installed on a Citabria and I am wondering if I'm gonna need different parts/rigging to make it fit on the 185. I cant find many info on the web, I believe the company is not in operation anymore since I cant find a website. It looks like the owner doens not has any paperwork with it, so I wonder where can I find the infos for the installation? I'm also going to need an STC.

Thanks a lot in advance for the infos!

Here are the skis:

Schneider 4000s on a Citabria? Holy cats! That thing musta been over gross before the pilot got in it.

Those skis are HEAVY! But sturdy.

If tweets me, I’d be looking for a set of Landes Airglas penetration skis instead. Company is still in business and parts available. And they’ll be a little lighter.

You’ll need several parts to fit any of these type skis, like axle extensions, stub axles, and rigging which is easy enough to make.

Does your plane have the ski tabs high on the boot cowl? If not, you’ll need to buy and install those. Do NOT use the type that clamp onto the gear legs.

Atlee Dodge or Stoddards in Anchorage will have the ski tabs, and they may be able to help find other parts.

MTV

Thanks a lot for your response.
Yes they were on a Citabria!
Those skis were a good deal and I had a few good reviews about them. For the hours, the price and kind of operation I was going to do with them it was all good with me. But now, I'm not really willing to struggle finding parts here in there. I was hoping to get a no brainer easy to install deal.
And I also have the ski tabs already installed on the plane.

Those are the narrow 4000 skis. Good ski but small for deep powder in a heavy 185. They do perform very well with the plates installed and perform like a typical penetration ski otherwise.

I am not sure if the Citabria axle bolt pattern is the same as a Cessna but the inboard fittings look the same. Also the outboard fitting looks like the same as the Cessna except fatter possibly. The outboard axle slides in the Cessna axle and does not get pined. I have some 180 paperwork. The install is identical to the 185 install with exception for the flight manual and STC number.
The company does not exist anymore and you will not be able to get any paperwork from the owners. It is pretty much an abandoned STC. I doubt anything has changed.

the rest. Good luck.

Matt

Thanks!!! That is very useful infos!!

And, without the STC, which must be specific to your aircraft, you'd have to install the skis via a field approval, which may or may not be a big deal. FSDO may recognize the fact that the STC is orphaned, and be willing to FA the skis on that basis.

I'd still be looking at a set of Airglas skis, myself.

MTV

mtv wrote:Those skis are HEAVY! But sturdy.

PAMR MX wrote:Those are the narrow 4000 skis. Good ski but small for deep powder in a heavy 185. They do perform very well with the plates installed and perform like a typical penetration ski otherwise.

Are they all aluminum? Built like a tuna boat? How's it compare to the Fluidyne construction?

Can you put an oversized footprint UHMW on it to get a little more float?

We have these Schneider 4000 skis, the 15" wide model, on a 180.

They have performed well here in the Northeast. YMMV, as the deepest snow we've flown in is about 24", most commonly 10-15". We operate regularly alongside two other 180's with the Landes Airglas 3600. Takeoff performance is normally too close to call; our deepest conditions favor the Airglas slightly. We don't have the "plates" that go under the tire. The grainy youtube clip shows the two type skis on similar 180's (PPonk, MAC 401 on both; lead airplane AIrglas+Sportsman, second aircraft Schneider+Horton).

Having flown in and with the other 180's, I can tell you the older Airglas benefit greatly from the retrofitting the modern tailwheel assembly, replacing the large castering tailwheel that came from a Tcraft or something. The kit is about $800, goes on in a few hours.

Weight: the Schneiders weigh less. Mine are 40.5 lbs each, plus about 10 lbs of UMHW; total 50.5 This goes up to 55.5 for the 23" wide model. The Airglas weigh 63 lbs each.

Widening the UMHW footprint: This could be done easily enough during a bottom replacement. Chose not to during our replacement; performance is good, speed is good, and I like the strength of the UMHW conforming to the outline of the aluminum.

Springs vs. bungees: The Airglas bungees are easier to install than the Schneider springs. You can stretch the bungee enough to install it. The springs are difficult, without raising the tail way up; or picking the airplane up with the seaplane lift rings. Springs are basically lifetime, though, if stored properly.

Either way, I recommend the Burl's tail ski.

aqua wrote:We have these Schneider 4000 skis, the 15" wide model, on a 180.

They have performed well here in the Northeast. YMMV, as the deepest snow we've flown in is about 24", most commonly 10-15". We operate regularly alongside two other 180's with the Landes Airglas 3600. Takeoff performance is normally too close to call; our deepest conditions favor the Airglas slightly. We don't have the "plates" that go under the tire. The grainy youtube clip shows the two type skis on similar 180's (PPonk, MAC 401 on both; lead airplane AIrglas+Sportsman, second aircraft Schneider+Horton).

Having flown in and with the other 180's, I can tell you the older Airglas benefit greatly from the retrofitting the modern tailwheel assembly, replacing the large castering tailwheel that came from a Tcraft or something. The kit is about $800, goes on in a few hours.

Weight: the Schneiders weigh less. Mine are 40.5 lbs each, plus about 10 lbs of UMHW; total 50.5 This goes up to 55.5 for the 23" wide model. The Airglas weigh 63 lbs each.

Widening the UMHW footprint: This could be done easily enough during a bottom replacement. Chose not to during our replacement; performance is good, speed is good, and I like the strength of the UMHW conforming to the outline of the aluminum.

Springs vs. bungees: The Airglas bungees are easier to install than the Schneider springs. You can stretch the bungee enough to install it. The springs are difficult, without raising the tail way up; or picking the airplane up with the seaplane lift rings. Springs are basically lifetime, though, if stored properly.

Either way, I recommend the Burl's tail ski.

Excellent prep, Aqua. I thoroughly agree regarding those miserable original tailwheels on the Airglas skis. I know a fellow who had those on his 185, and after visiting his remote cabin, he’d remove the old tailwheels, take off and fly to an airport groomed for skis, and packed, then re install the tailwheels and fly home. When Airglas came out with the new style wheels, he switched, and never looked back.

MTV

I flew both Landis 3600 & Schneider 4000's on my C-185's with about 400 hours on each type.
Both are good skis but I liked the Schneider 4000 better than the Landis 3600. With the plate in the 4000's preform like straight skis and got off deep snow better than the 3600's. The 4000's also turned better.
Never used the narrow 4000's skis.

Jerry Jacques
www.Bristol-Bay.com

Mr. Schneider is back in Alaska. He lives north of Wasilla. He supplied me with STC paperwork for some 10" wheel adapters he produced that I purchased from a friend last spring. He did want to inspect the parts personally as he said there have been some counterfeit copies made of some of his products. I took the wheel adapters to his house where he inspected them. Nice guy.

mtv wrote: And, without the STC, which must be specific to your aircraft, you'd have to install the skis via a field approval, which may or may not be a big deal. FSDO may recognize the fact that the STC is orphaned, and be willing to FA the skis on that basis. ...

Looks like that wheel-ski STC is only applicable to C180's, not 185's.

I had not heard that Rick Schneider was back in Alaska.
That is good news, he has an incredible engineering mind, is a wealth if information and as you said a nice guy.

Do you have contact inf for him?

Jerry Jacques
www.Bristol-Bay.com

JacquesAK wrote:I had not heard that Rick Schneider was back in Alaska.
That is good news, he has an incredible engineering mind, is a wealth if information and as you said a nice guy.

Do you have contact inf for him?

Jerry Jacques
http://www.Bristol-Bay.com

I do but I'm reluctant to post anyones phone number on the internet without permission. I did a search and don't see his number publicly listed so I don't want to be the guy that gets him bombarded with robo calls.

I'll send it to you in a PM.

OP, did you get the Schneider’s?

We flew a lot on ours this week. They did really well in the deep snow. Takeoff video was at close to max gross weight.

New Hampshire:







Brewery near home in Western NY:



More NY:

aqua wrote:OP, did you get the Schneider’s?

We flew a lot on ours this week. They did really well in the deep snow. Takeoff video was at close to max gross weight.

New Hampshire:

Brewery near home in Western NY:



More NY:

THAT'S deep snow???

MTV

Ha, you got me!

Should read "deep snow, for the Northeast"

18" or so, with a crust of ice, plus some drifts.

Hey, it's all good.....just yanking your chain. Ski flying is fun, and it can be a lot of work too. Deeper snow = more work.

My record was getting stuck in deep, deep snow, with multiple crusts. Snow was a couple inches from the bottom of the wing once I got stopped...... . That was a very special day.....

Keep on having fun....

MTV

It's been "deep" enough here where I couldn't get out the taxiway. Like Aqua described, we only have a couple of feet, but a very dense layer with a crust about a foot down. The owner of the hanger where I have the plane for the winter just bought our "solution" I am hoping to get out today. He groomed up the taxiway Friday.

Pete