Hello again! Often times around here we will have solid lakes with little to no snow on them. We have a few guys I've seen (before I ever thought I'd actually buy my own plane) land on the ice with just normal tires. What is standard practice in these conditions? What are the pro's and con's of skis vs tires on solid ice? I would assume that the landings are much more cushioned on tires and, as such, are likely the preferred way to go? Do treaded tires make any difference compared to smoothies?

Somewhere on the web- maybe even archived on this site- is an old list of tips, dos, and don'ts from the braintrust of the Iditarod Air Force. It's a great resource for these topics you're raising. There's also a BCP Knowledge Base article authored by an eminently qualified BCP member.

Are you flying tricycle or tail dragger? That has some bearing not only on ski efficacy and selection, but also wheeled-ground-loop-on-ice potential. Skis on glare ice can slide forever. Metal skags help a little, but can also increase side-loading on the gear. Bushwheels on ice or packed snow can slide as good or better than skis. Airframes Alaska sells a mechanical arrester product called 'The Grizzly Claw". I have no personal experience with it. On the other hand a layer of hoar frost on a very cold day can offer pretty decent braking. There are so many variables with ice and snow that there's no one answer to this stuff. Acquiring experience, ideally good mentorship, and a cautious approach is the way to ease into it. The rewards are many, but the perils are never too far away. The only hard rule I can think of is don't try to land with wheels in snow if you don't know the depth and consistency of the snow with absolute certainty.

Cheers,

-DP

I don't have the experience others here do, but from simple observation I'd say skis are useful on snow.

Skis or tires work on ice, but tires don't work on snow save for a very narrow set of conditions.

Tons of planes of all types, including retractable tricycle gear models show up for the Alton Bay ice runway fly-in. If it's glare ice, no problem. Skis work too. But tires are not a good idea on snow, and usually when it's the time of year to be doing this stuff, people have skis on.

Then there's that old video of Bobby Breeden doing donuts on ice with bushwheels.

Anyone actually used the Airframes Claw?

Wheel skis, penetration style in my case are the way to go for winter fun.

I should have mentioned: Tailwheel. Taylorcraft BC-12D

Sooooooo, Lets just start by saying DO NOT LAND ON SNOW WITH TIRES!!! Every year we have several planes flip including nose wheel aircraft because someone saw a You Tube video or his buddy said is was fine. We had a Beaver on its back this spring landing on the ski strip when a perfectly good plowed runway was right next to the ski strip. Ya it can be done but only until it can't. So back to ICE landing. Tires work fine on ice and are sometimes even better than skis however, not all ice is the same. Black ice that you see on runways with fresh rain/recent melt quick freeze sucks now matter what you have on the plane. Takeoff is usually quick and easy but little to no stoping control with tires, you can wag the tail and use the skeg on skis to help slow the plane but leave a lot of room. Properly set up ski brakes do work good on ice really don't help in snow. Rough ice and hard pack snow that will will find at most lake runways do just fine with tires and skis. Breaking is just like with a car it depends on the Ice. Another problem we have is pilots will try to land on the ski strips in the spring with Bushwheels. It works if the snow is not deep but they leave big ruts and when they freeze at night really screw up and make nice ski strips dangerous. It only take a few hours to swap skis to tires to straight skis, you can do it yourself once trained, set up a system to do it and enjoy both over the winter.
DENNY

I've landed on bare ice on both wheels and skis. I found that wheels do provide a little bit more traction and braking then skis. I had 8.50 tundra tires at the time. As for ground loops on wheels, I think its actually safer on bare ice. If you loose directional control and drift sideways, your tires have no grip and can't grab and flip the aircraft onto the wing. You just slide along sideways... or backwards if your really showing off.

The skis I have have UHMW bottoms and are as smooth as possible to reduce drag on takeoff. I don't like to land on bare ice with skis as it puts the entire weight of the aircraft on very small area of the ski with no cushioning.

I also slid from one end of the lake to the other, the only thing that stopped me was a skiff snow near shore. I realized after that I should have shut the engine down and I would have come to a stop sooner. When I tried to taxi I could not point downwind, every time I'd rev the prop up and throw all the rudder in I could, it would only go halfway around or all the way around. I even have a steerable tail ski. I'm sure it looked comical. I learned a lot that day.

MRebel wrote:I've landed on bare ice on both wheels and skis. I found that wheels do provide a little bit more traction and braking then skis. I had 8.50 tundra tires at the time. As for ground loops on wheels, I think its actually safer on bare ice. If you loose directional control and drift sideways, your tires have no grip and can't grab and flip the aircraft onto the wing. You just slide along sideways... or backwards if your really showing off.

The skis I have have UHMW bottoms and are as smooth as possible to reduce drag on takeoff. I don't like to land on bare ice with skis as it puts the entire weight of the aircraft on very small area of the ski with no cushioning.

I also slid from one end of the lake to the other, the only thing that stopped me was a skiff snow near shore. I realized after that I should have shut the engine down and I would have come to a stop sooner. When I tried to taxi I could not point downwind, every time I'd rev the prop up and throw all the rudder in I could, it would only go halfway around or all the way around. I even have a steerable tail ski. I'm sure it looked comical. I learned a lot that day.

This is why my Airglas 2500's (on Cub) and 3000's (on 180) have that AN4 bolt penetrating the runner with the head down on each side near the pedestal (2 per ski). The drag is negligible on snow and you sure want them there on ice. When landing on ice the shavings can be seen flying up past the door as those little bolt heads do their job. Operating straight skis in finite landing areas or confined taxi ramps such as FAI when its all hardpack without these can quickly become an expensive lesson.

Thanks for the tip TR. I might give it a try this year but I'm apprehensive. I operate out of a 1800ft airstrip at 3000ft ASL with trees at both ends, my 90 horse C140 isn't ideally suited for this application. Typically I groom 2/3s of the runway and leave the last 3rd as a powdery slowdown zone.



Hope we're not hijacking your thread Broal

Looks like a great strip and a nice 140 you have there. To keep the record straight, Airglas skis come with the bolts installed as described.

This has reminded me of a great chapter in Jay Hammond's "Tales of a Bush Rat Governor". I won't spoil it in case anyone is moved to pick it up.

-DP

Tires on glare ice