So as I stated in the empty weight post I just picked up my 185F from a panel upgrade.a few things seems a little weird to me so I want to run them by all you wise folks.

Firstly, the plane just flies like crap. Feels very unstable at slow speed, nose heavy, and in general just handles poorly.

I got rid of all the stock gauges, aux fuel gauges, 2x cdi, jpi830, Garmin 530 and 430, stec AP. That was a whopping 16-17 gauges removed. Then installed all glass, 4x gi275, 750xi, Garmin autopilot. The scales say I gained a little over 10 pounds in avionics. Every report I’ve seen people normally lose 10-20 lbs…anyway.

Additionally, my stall speed is now 55 mph which seems extremely high for Sportsman equipped 185. I can’t remember a specific speed from before, but by all accounts I can find this is about 15 mph higher than normal. Could be just different gauges reading differently, but I don’t know.

And also the yoke is sticking. Before I brought it into the shop, I know that yoke full back was a bicep class. The yoke used to always want to go back to neutral. Now the yoke sticks when I pull it full aft. I even had to forcefully push it forward and it requires a pretty good amount of force get to moving back to neutral. Here is a video of the yoke:

https://youtube.com/shorts/10h3B4jRU7g?feature=share

Has anyone else witnessed these issues?

GFC 500 AP?

Do you pull the AP circuit breaker when practicing your stalls?

I’m sure you are aware but I feel like it needs to be said. The GFC 500 will take control when practicing stalls even if it’s turned off. Gotta pull the breaker.

I wonder if the yoke is hanging up on something behind the panel?

Also look at your rigging in the tail while a friend moves it in and out.

You never know….

What does your avionics installer tell you about these issues?

It *might* be a combination of some things:
1. Garmin ESP https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviat ... ction-esp/
2. Disagreement between GFC 500 Horizon and other Garmin Devices
3. Nose forward CG --- Maybe best to have the plane weighed and know for sure rather than relying on W/B calculations

Crawl under the panel and ensure that there is nothing binding up the controls. I often find wire bundles, cables, vacuum lines, etc. interfering with full control movement.

This gives me the willies. It could be anything from yoke (the Y bar) to the control column bushing to a cable having jumped a pulley to some badly located FOD. With so much control system drag nothing is going to feel right.

I'd have someone going over every inch of that thing.

I’d have to agree that the weight gain from your avionics upgrade makes little sense. Assuming that the old harnesses, cables and antennas were removed before the new stuff went in, it’s hard to fathom a weight gain from that. As for the flying, moving the battery to the firewall is a topic of discussion for many, solely based on the impact that it has on the cg. Are you carrying weight in the baggage area to bring yourself into a more favorable cg when flying light weight?

Regarding the yoke, I’m just finishing a 1976 A185F project that included a panel upgrade, nowhere as nice as yours though….Anyway, I replaced my universal joints (connect control shaft to control yoke) and replaced the plastic bushings that the shaft glides on as it penetrates the instrument panel. I was getting some sticking in the pilot side yoke which was from the new bushing. Because the “old” one was perfectly fine, I put it back in and it was smooth again. That could be the issue? It’s an easy fix. It could also be that the new panel sheet metal wasn’t cut accurately enough and the shaft is binding. A new wire bundle or pitot/static line interfering with the control yoke behind the panel could do also be the culprit. I would certainly hope that your pitch control system is in good working order with cables, pulleys, bellcranks, etc. all in proper condition.

The high stall speed is puzzling. I haven’t done gi275s, I would assume that there is an airspeed calibration procedure? Also assume that they did a pitot static check with the new panel?

You’ve got a beautiful 185, good luck sorting this out, hopefully it’s something minor. I should be flying mine within a month after I complete my sportsman install and new bladders. I’m anticipating some hiccups based on how much has been done. Please let us know when you resolve your issues. Good luck!

Mike

Hmmm. Puzzling. I have done several panel upgrades over the years and never experienced what you are experiencing. I did start an upgrade on my old Cessna and upon checking up on the progress noticed that they were cutting harnesses and leaving them in place. I told them to remove it all and at the end it was 22lbs of wire.

As previous posters have said, putting the battery on the firewall can do some goofy things to CG - Earthx might be a good option to take some weight off - depending on your battery it could be 6-7lbs lighter - Or just put some weight in the back.

On the yoke issue - good advice above.

Beautiful plane and I hope it gets sorted out timely.

I redid the panel in my 180. I experienced the same thing with the airspeed indicator. I swapped out an old one with no green white or yellow arcs with one from a later model 180. I bought it from someone on this forum IIRC. I put in a G5 as well. They new airspeed indicators are very close to each other, as in within 2 mph. But, the original airspeed would indicate around 40 at stall, the new ones are about 50.
In my mind, the number is meaningless. It stalls at the same speed it did before, but the number is higher.

As for the weight, are the numbers actual or calculated? I calcluated all mine and I think i lost like 8# going from a VFR panel to an IFR panel and ditching the vacuum system. But then weighed the plane after it got painted as it had never been painted.

For sure check everything under the panel. Make sure no hoses or wires are binding the control column in any control configuration.

I always do a full control check before every takeoff. Even the fifth takeoff of the day. This was reinforced in me after a similar experience following panel work. Luckily I discovered this on the ground before takeoff during a control check, but it definitely got my attention.

In your video it looks like the there is a curly shaving coming from the nylon panel bushing as the control wheel approaches full forward???

That looks pretty alarming to me. I can't fathom someone signed it off with the yoke resistance like that. I would do exactly as suggested above, remove the front seats and spend some quality time under the panel figuring out what they might have screwed up. If that is a weighed W&B, then maybe I can see the weight gain, if it's calculated, I agree it makes little to no sense.

denalipilot wrote:In your video it looks like the there is a curly shaving coming from the nylon panel bushing as the control wheel approaches full forward???

This. Looks like that bushing is binding on the yoke. Could they have put the bushing in the wrong location on panel? Did they put in a new bushing? Not super familiar with the Cessna bushing setup.

As far as weight gain, I have found that people's expectations of airplanes losing weight are a little lofty. I'd probably tend to trust the scales but also I'd peak under there and see if the old harnesses are in place. On my project, weights of components were often surprising, in both directions. Sometimes removing something you thought would be big was actually almost negligible.

Who weighed the aircraft after? Do they know how to properly weigh a tailwheel aircraft?

denalipilot wrote:In your video it looks like the there is a curly shaving coming from the nylon panel bushing as the control wheel approaches full forward???

Looks like a piece of fuzz from a seat or something on his hand as it re-enters the screen.

Does the control wheel in and out stroke feel smooth and just a bit resistive or can you feel it hang up in spots?

You are now reading true airspeed with the 275. My old pitot driven gauge is not even close to TAS on G5 since reworking panel. I can ride my stall to the ground with the pitot AI pegged under 40. I’m having a hard time getting used to watching the G5 for TAS just out of habit of watching the old dial.

Re the yoke sticking, my airplanes yoke shaft changes angle pretty drastically as the yoke moves fore & aft.
Does the collar where the control lock goes on your airplane allow the shaft to do that?

My 180 has the round teflon balls with triangular sockets where the shaft goes through the panel.
If I tighten up too much on the screws holding the sockets, the shaft binds.
I had to leave them loose (with nylock nuts) so that the shaft doesn't bind, or else space the sockets out with washers.

The yoke thing would have been a unable to accept delivery from me and stop payment

For how much you probably spent I’d call the shop and ask if they want you to bring it back, I probably wouldn’t fly it, or if they want to pay for another shop to fix it, I wouldn’t touch anything on that plane till you get a response back via email or text

The stall speed and weights I might play around with, but that yoke, flight control issues, nooope

skyward II wrote:GFC 500 AP?

Do you pull the AP circuit breaker when practicing your stalls?

I’m sure you are aware but I feel like it needs to be said. The GFC 500 will take control when practicing stalls even if it’s turned off. Gotta pull the breaker.

Or you can just disable Garmin ES (Electronic Stability and Protection) temporarily... pulling the CB saves you a button push or two - but seems a bit of overkill to just turn off the ES

ESP can be permanently disabled in the set up menu.

I don't think you have an ESP issue as you don't mention the "nanny state" of the ESP whilst in flight. That's the only time ESP kicks in. Appears in your video the AP is not engaged .

Are you sure you had an accurate WB prior to the install and post install? I'd also make sure you are making an apples to apples comparison. KTS to MPH? KTS to KTS? MPH to KTS? All of the new digital stuff can be set up either way. I'd make sure I knew what my baseline was before I dove in too deep.

What I would not wait on is the control binding. I would make sure that is fixed or resolved before my next flight.

MW

NineThreeKilo wrote:The yoke thing would have been a unable to accept delivery from me and stop payment

For how much you probably spent I’d call the shop and ask if they want you to bring it back, I probably wouldn’t fly it, or if they want to pay for another shop to fix it, I wouldn’t touch anything on that plane till you get a response back via email or text

The stall speed and weights I might play around with, but that yoke, flight control issues, nooope

EXACTLY!!!! It should have never taxied out!!!
My old boss flew his 185 home from the paint shop once, when they'd installed the elevators swapped side to side and upside down. I was having sinus surgery at the time and he didn't want to call. He almost bunched it up on the way home. Just because they kick it out the door and say it's good to go, doesn't mean it is!! If it doesn't look or feel right, DON"T take it until it's been checked out and YOU are satisfied!!!
John

Sorry to hear this news. The airplane shouldn't be flying differently following an avionics upgrade and no modifications to the wing. I would likely ground the airplane because of the way the yoke feels. Flight controls do not sound free and correct. Very concerning for something gone wrong during the install but this is likely an easy fix. I don't remember my airplane feeling any different following the install of the GFC500 AP. I lost a lot of weight going glass.

As for the stall speed at 55 mph. Curious if that was dirty or wet. Plus isn't the ASI in a 185F in knots. You could have a problem with the ADC or static sensor giving you these readings. The ESP on the AP is set for 75 mph so I assume you are deactivating it practicing stalls ? I am curious where the airplane stalled prior to the install. I think this problem is likely related to calibration. I would check out the yoke with your IA and then go fly it in cruise and in slow flight using your GPS averaged ground speeds to determine the true airspeed. This is all concerning stuff but there is likely a way to fix the calibration.


Frustrating for sure.


Josh