Zzz wrote:
Honestly, I am laughing so hard I'm in tears.

X2

Ha! Some funny shit for sure! Nice pic!

I thought there was an understood don't do as i do level of thinking here..? Don't think anyone's suggesting someone tape over there airspeed. Especially not a new pilot. For god sake don't do dam thing you hear on a website if your brain tells you otherwise. Hell don't fly a an airplane if you think this is a place to read and go do what you read! But I thought this site was for people to discuss they're opinions and methods. It's not ifrpilot.com. And ill go out a limb here and say if you CANT fly your plane wo an airspeed and land it comfortably, your leaving one of these "tools" mentioned in your bag. Not needing one can be as big a tool or bigger than using it! Here comes the rocks.. And I'm gonna bet if you NEED it then your using a little more ground.. This is about gettin in and out short no...? Do NOT go out and practice for the first time at a 100agl!! Do whatever YOU wanna do and ill do what I wanna do. No ones talking shit about anyone using one but seems vise versus gets some shitty comments thrown out... Weird. Kinda reminds me of trying to have a logical conversation with a liberal. More rocks please. all in good fun on my part. Some posts I learn. Some I say f that. I use my own judgement. Which is off alot. I think most people have good intentions here.

Weird is right...

People are generally afraid of that which they do not understand. And mob mentality does some really strange shit to otherwise wonderful people.
Sorry to see contact go, because I am sure he will...what a waste of a truly great opportunity for those who were adult enough to take what they wanted and leave what they didn't .

Some may find it all fun and games, me, I am embarrassed to be a part of it....


Later

Butterscotch and powersnatch? He'll yeah, count me in!

Brent

Agreed rob. What do u mean hate to see contact go?? I can type with my eyes closed to. I'm a badass

So....back to stall down,

A very cool technique, explained to me by one of the guys here before I joined you scofflaws, is to keep the plane and wings at cruise attitude, pull flaps and pull power. (Now I've never tried this technique with any other plane then my wagon, so if you want to try it go high first to be safe.)

Once my wagon gets slow enough she just sinks, I call it "riding the elevator down". The stall horn will be on all the way down, but she won't stall because the angle of attack is the same as level flight.

Of course at some point I have to stop the descent. I do this one of two ways.

1. If I'm not really trying to land as short as possible at about 50' or so I just point her nose down to pick up just enough speed so she's flying again and flare and land her.

2. If I want the shortest landing possible I'll momentarily burst just enough throttle at her as I enter ground effect to arrest the descent.

This is one of the coolest techniques I've learned to date. Super useful when there is a tall obstruction at the approach end of the runway.

And it's particularly fun to do when one of my pilot friends is in the wagon. Still 700' agl, and you both know you are way to close in, and way to high to even make the far end of the runway, much less the approach end.

Pull flaps, pull power, and ride the elevator down right to the approach end. Another tool in the box.

You know I've never checked to see what my ground speed is while doing this, I'll try and remember to check next time out, it certainly can't be much. I'll echo what others have said and say that once I'm slow enough to pull flaps I'm done looking at the airspeed indicator, the plane lets me know what speed she wants.

Barnstormer wrote:So....back to stall down,

A very cool technique, explained to me by one of the guys here before I joined you scofflaws, is to keep the plane and wings at cruise attitude, pull flaps and pull power. (Now I've never tried this technique with any other plane then my wagon, so if you want to try it go high first to be safe.)

Once my wagon gets slow enough she just sinks, I call it "riding the elevator down". The stall horn will be on all the way down, but she won't stall because the angle of attack is the same as level flight.

Of course at some point I have to stop the descent. I do this one of two ways.

1. If I'm not really trying to land as short as possible at about 50' or so I just point her nose down to pick up just enough speed so she's flying again and flare and land her.

2. If I want the shortest landing possible I'll momentarily burst just enough throttle at her as I enter ground effect to arrest the descent.

This is one of the coolest techniques I've learned to date. Super useful when there is a tall obstruction at the approach end of the runway.

And it's particularly fun to do when one of my pilot friends is in the wagon. Still 700' agl, and you both know you are way to close in, and way to high to even make the far end of the runway, much less the approach end.

Pull flaps, pull power, and ride the elevator down right to the approach end. Another tool in the box.

You know I've never checked to see what my ground speed is while doing this, I'll try and remember to check next time out, it certainly can't be much. I'll echo what others have said and say that once I'm slow enough to pull flaps I'm done looking at the airspeed indicator, the plane lets me know what speed she wants.

Looks like a useful technique! I think you might be mistaken on your AoA statement though... This is one of the few, cool times my rotorhead knowledge might be helpful to you guys:

Angle of attack and pitch angle (or angle of incidence) can be the same angle if the relative wind is from the same direction as the relative axis, but are do not carry the same definitions. In your situation, once you apply flaps and dump power the airplane begins descending through the air at a rapid rate. This changes the direction of the relative wind on the airfoil - much like pitching up. So you get a greater angle of attack due to the "upflow" of the air you're sinking through.

It sounds like you just ride a wings-level stall down to the ground, which from what I've heard is a good technique to put in your toolbox.

What a great term. Now I can tell the flight reviewer that the arrival that just knocked the taste out of his mouth was definitely not a "dead cat bounce", it was a highly advanced manuever taught in advanced crop duster jedi school.

Nosedragger wrote:What a great term.

I know, right? Powersnatch has now been planted firmly in my vernacular.

Some of these boys need to lay off the peyote buttons...

CamTom12,

Figured I'd get corrected and that's cool, it's the technique I care about. Honest question though, as the wagon slows and begins sinking faster then moving forward there is no sensation of an approaching stall. No mushy feeling at all, and the stall horn is on constantly but just barely.

I understand that at this point there is more wind hitting the bottom of the wing then the leading edge. But is the wing really stalled? Has the air actually separated from the wing? Or is it just not producing enough lift to keep the airplane airborne?

Barnstormer,

In a helicopter there are 3 zones in an autorotative disk: stalled, driving, and driven (from the hub to the tip of the blade). Rotor blades have washout like airplane wings do (though for different reasons), so my assumption is that the root of your wing (the flapped portion) is stalled while the tips still have laminar airflow, allowing you fairly crisp aileron feel for the relative airspeed. I think the washout (or camber reduction) is further exaggerated by your flaps, giving you a fast but controlled descent without an increase in forward airspeed.

Just an educated guess based on the aerodynamics I've studied and the situation you're describing!

Pretty sure every Certificated pilot learned all about airspace and airspeed along with their PTS standards when getting their ticket, so what's the point of jabbering about it like no one knows how to use those tools on a backcountry pilot forum???

I say the most important tool in the toolbox is to grow a pair and get out and fly the wings off of somethin, anything, whether you are the Captain of a flying Lawn Chair or a P-51 Mustang

Barnstormer wrote:But is the wing really stalled? Has the air actually separated from the wing? Or is it just not producing enough lift to keep the airplane airborne?

Well, the stall horn goes off prior to the stall. It's a stall warning, not a stall indicator. So the air might not be separated from the wing.... yet.

But yes, if you are at a level/cruise attitude and your descent gets steep enough, you will stall. AoA is AoA.

Hell ya skalywag. I'm thinkin maybe we need an alternate backcountry sight. Maybe some folks think backcountry means 3000ft grass strip w a tricked out carbon cub. Like rob said. People are afraid of what they do t understand. Therefore they try and tear it down. Now I gotta practice with my eyes shut on peyote. Starting to wonder why I waste time on this site. Anyone that continues to argue seat of the pants flying on a website w this name. Is in the wrong place. Yes Phil. That's another great technique when used properly. But careful your liable to get a bad name doing all this crazy crazy shit. Ha.

I don't think anyone is trying to act like this stuff is extraordinarily cowboy crazy dangerous. Furthermore, I don't think it's all that crazy to slow down a plane to near stall and put out the flaps. I am pretty sure that IS how you land any plane with flaps. In some planes you have to be cowboy tough to pull full flaps with much speed at all. What is described sure isn't the shortest way to land a plane.
I think the confusion is in the communication.
I mean, I've never heard of giving names to this stuff and it might seem the nomenclature is a bit off (i thought it was just called "landing an airplane").
Plus it sounds like yall are trying to teach each other how to fly and you might all have Cessnas, which is good but confusing to others.
Don't get me wrong tho, if you create a new site and you're all over there playing make-believe Russian roulette stall-down nose-dive kinectic-spin-the-bottle donkey-punch lemme know! I'll start working on my avatar!

I believe this forum is titled "Theory, Practice, and Procedures".

As such I am just trying to have a honest dialog, hoping to learn from the highly talented pilots here, while sharing what I'm working on.

I had no idea that it would be offensive to some, nor that my choosing to fly a Cessna would be offensive to some.

Of course no one has to read anything I post.

Fowler flaps are wonderful things that should be used to their full potential every time. With most other flaps we have to slip as well.

This site is really cool and a great place to find info on our type of flyin etc. Lots of folks have really helped me out through PM's just as much if not more than posting on the threads.

What is so wrong with hangar flyin a bit, guess I just don't get it. If you wanna be a ding dong donkey punch or whatever thats fine, but I'll leave that to you and stick to flyin and being open minded bout it so I don't get stuck in my little box of only one way to do things or think that I have somethin figured out.

There is no substitute for experience, and personally don't think bout any of this stuff when flying just like I wouldnt be thinkin anything at all when ridin motorcylces, snowboarding, fly-fishing, or surfing. The beauty is just to not think and be absorbed by the moment, totally focused, and try to make the most out of every minute. It's just cool to think about it when your not flyin from a different perspective.

55wagon wrote:Hell ya skalywag. I'm thinkin maybe we need an alternate backcountry sight. Maybe some folks think backcountry means 3000ft grass strip w a tricked out carbon cub. Like rob said. People are afraid of what they do t understand. Therefore they try and tear it down. Now I gotta practice with my eyes shut on peyote. Starting to wonder why I waste time on this site. Anyone that continues to argue seat of the pants flying on a website w this name. Is in the wrong place. Yes Phil. That's another great technique when used properly. But careful your liable to get a bad name doing all this crazy crazy shit. Ha.

If you think that a technique should be considered superior, not based on it's actual merit but simply because it's more "seat-of-the-pants" than another technique, maybe it's you that's in the the wrong place.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but I think people here are generally pretty interested in become more skilled and more knowledgable pilots. If a technique is wrong or dangerous, "seat-of-the-pants" technique or not, it should be discussed.

This has gone beyond ridiculous. I got a wife. I don't need to argue w people for the sake of arguing. Better to be quiet and assumed an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Have fun with your glass panel. Ignorance is bliss.
I'm out.